Secular Religions

Argue for and against religions and philosophies which are not Christian

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Ooberman
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Secular Religions

Post #1

Post by Ooberman »

First, I want to clear up one thing:

Theism is to atheism like Christianity is to Humanism.

Theism nor atheism are religions. They are single positions on a single question that Theists claim is true. Atheists claim the argument for Theism is either unconvincing (weak atheism, or agnostic atheism), or strongly unconvincing (strong atheism).

There are two subsets, in which agnostics are part of a overlapping group of both circles, and hold a section that is neither atheist or theist, but entirely agnostic; or unknowing. A feral child, perhaps. A baby.

If theism is true, then there is still a lot of work to work out what we should do about it. Should we worship the gods of our Fathers? Why? Tradition, and religionists who argue for the truth of ancient religions, they would claim there is a God; a Standard for moral behavior, and it is a moral being, as well.

It is both author and paradigm of moral values.

Written in their texts, and, for some, the hearts of men, are guidelines for a Good Life. The best, maximal life you could imagine for yourself, and the sacrifices to make in order to get it. And what kind of behavior is permitted; what is forbidden.

The strength of the Religionists position for moral values is that she only need allude to the Divine Power of the Book she is about to quote, but then, can select a verse that supports her view about the topic. All religions have ample wiggle room - because they claim to live on the border of the visible and invisible.

To the atheist or skeptic, or rational inquirer, this is not an argument for validity.

And, so, the Bright (let's use a Bright as an example, regardless of the connotations. I think it's fine, but I don't think I'd call myself a Bright, even if I met the qualifications. The point is that Brights are a denomination within Atheism).

From the Bright's perspective, she believes there is no God, and so, if this is true - or if it isn't - what is the Bright to do?

This is where I think all of humanity is: at a point in which they can decide which moral values they would like if they could have everything they want, but innately understand, if this was equal for everyone, there might be some very troubling Desires.

Religion, either theistic, deistic or secular, must have a plan that holds true.

Many theistic religions simply declare "God is God, the Book says so." Presuppositionalists, Muslims, many other theists cite this argument. This is not a rational position, since it is clearly an aesthetic choice. (The "This religion looks right to me, so I choose it as the Truth" syndrome.)

So, religion is important for the transmissions of myths, certainly. This is important. We are a species that obviously enjoys mythology and responds to it. And, religion helps form a basis for moral values.

However, we know Philosophers debate about moral values, and we also know there are fundamental differences between which view we are to take. Are morals "real"? What are they at all?

These are questions among theist and atheist alike. Trying to discover what God Desires, is a complex job. Trying to find out what "Purpose" there is to our life and how we relate to the world is a big deal.

The atheist can use the same terms the religious use, and visa versa. Atheists can talk of "sin", but it means something different to the theist.



The point:

Which Secular Religion is best? Just as we should compare Christianity to other religions, we should also consider the benefits of other religions, too.

Which Secular Religion has the best moral precepts/doctrine?

To start I'll offer the Humanist Manifesto:

Humanist Manifesto III, a successor to the Humanist Manifesto of 1933*

Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

The lifestance of Humanism—guided by reason, inspired by compassion, and informed by experience—encourages us to live life well and fully. It evolved through the ages and continues to develop through the efforts of thoughtful people who recognize that values and ideals, however carefully wrought, are subject to change as our knowledge and understandings advance.

This document is part of an ongoing effort to manifest in clear and positive terms the conceptual boundaries of Humanism, not what we must believe but a consensus of what we do believe. It is in this sense that we affirm the following:

Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies. We also recognize the value of new departures in thought, the arts, and inner experience—each subject to analysis by critical intelligence.

Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing. We accept our life as all and enough, distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. We welcome the challenges of the future, and are drawn to and undaunted by the yet to be known.

Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.

Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death. Humanists rely on the rich heritage of human culture and the lifestance of Humanism to provide comfort in times of want and encouragement in times of plenty.

Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence. The joining of individuality with interdependence enriches our lives, encourages us to enrich the lives of others, and inspires hope of attaining peace, justice, and opportunity for all.

Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. Progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature's resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.

Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to diversity, and respect those of differing yet humane views. We work to uphold the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process and a planetary duty to protect nature's integrity, diversity, and beauty in a secure, sustainable manner.

Thus engaged in the flow of life, we aspire to this vision with the informed conviction that humanity has the ability to progress toward its highest ideals. The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone.

For historical purposes, see preceding Humanist Manifestos: I and II.

Click here for a version in Spanish (pdf).
Click here for a version in Portuguese (pdf).

Humanist Manifesto is a trademark of the American Humanist Association-© 2003 American Humanist Association



For comparison, Jainism:
The twelve vows are described as follows:

Five Main Vows of Limited Nature (Anuvratas):

Non-violence Anuvrat - Ahimsa Anuvrat (Sthula Pranatipat Viraman)
Truthfulness Anuvrat - Satya Anuvrat (Sthula Mrisavada Viraman)
Non-stealing Anuvrat - Achaurya Anuvrat (Sthula Adattadana Viraman)
Chastity Anuvrat - Bhramacharya Anuvrat (Sthula Maithuna Viraman)
Non-attachment Anuvrat- Aparigraha Anuvrat (Sthula Parigraha Viraman)
Three Merit Vows (Guna-vrats):

Dik Vrata - Limited area of activity vow
Bhoga-Upbhoga Vrata - Limited use of consumable and non-consumable items vow
Anartha-danda Vrata - Avoidance of purposeless sins vow
Four Disciplinary Vows (Siksha-vratas):

Samayik Vrata - Meditation vow of limited duration
Desavakasika Vrata - Activity vow of limiting space
Pausadha Vrata - Ascetic's life Vow of limited duration
Atithi Samvibhaga Vrata - Limited charity vow




Obviously, knowledge of the terminology is important, but I bet it's basically the same thing: Golden Rule + other good ideas.

Here is a religious test:
http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/ ... Matic.aspx


My test showed I most agree with Secular Humanism.

I don't know if I am, but I like what they have to say.




So, if there is no God and we knew it, which Secular Religion would you join?
Thinking about God's opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process. - Tomas Rees

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Post #2

Post by McCulloch »

While I disagree with the characterization of atheism as a religion, I do get the point of the question, I think.

I would not associate, for example, with the kind of militant anti-religion of the Marxists. I find that the Amsterdam Declaration of 2002 describes my atheist humanist outlook rather well.
International Humanist and Ethical Union wrote:The fundamentals of modern Humanism are as follows:
  1. Humanism is ethical. It affirms the worth, dignity and autonomy of the individual and the right of every human being to the greatest possible freedom compatible with the rights of others. Humanists have a duty of care to all of humanity including future generations. Humanists believe that morality is an intrinsic part of human nature based on understanding and a concern for others, needing no external sanction.
  2. Humanism is rational. It seeks to use science creatively, not destructively. Humanists believe that the solutions to the world’s problems lie in human thought and action rather than divine intervention. Humanism advocates the application of the methods of science and free inquiry to the problems of human welfare. But Humanists also believe that the application of science and technology must be tempered by human values. Science gives us the means but human values must propose the ends.
  3. Humanism supports democracy and human rights. Humanism aims at the fullest possible development of every human being. It holds that democracy and human development are matters of right. The principles of democracy and human rights can be applied to many human relationships and are not restricted to methods of government.
  4. Humanism insists that personal liberty must be combined with social responsibility. Humanism ventures to build a world on the idea of the free person responsible to society, and recognises our dependence on and responsibility for the natural world. Humanism is undogmatic, imposing no creed upon its adherents. It is thus committed to education free from indoctrination.
  5. Humanism is a response to the widespread demand for an alternative to dogmatic religion. The world’s major religions claim to be based on revelations fixed for all time, and many seek to impose their world-views on all of humanity. Humanism recognises that reliable knowledge of the world and ourselves arises through a continuing process. of observation, evaluation and revision.
  6. Humanism values artistic creativity and imagination and recognises the transforming power of art. Humanism affirms the importance of literature, music, and the visual and performing arts for personal development and fulfilment.
  7. Humanism is a lifestance aiming at the maximum possible fulfilment through the cultivation of ethical and creative living and offers an ethical and rational means of addressing the challenges of our times. Humanism can be a way of life for everyone everywhere.
Our primary task is to make human beings aware in the simplest terms of what Humanism can mean to them and what it commits them to. By utilising free inquiry, the power of science and creative imagination for the furtherance of peace and in the service of compassion, we have confidence that we have the means to solve the problems that confront us all. We call upon all who share this conviction to associate themselves with us in this endeavour.
Theologically, I am ignostic. Ignosticism is the idea that every theological position assumes too much about the concept of God and other theological concepts; including (but not limited to) concepts of faith, spirituality and souls, the afterlife and sin. Ignosticism rules out atheism, agnosticism as well as theism in the sense that these three positions all assume that the sentence "God exists" is meaningful. Simplified:
  • An atheist would say, 'I don't believe God exists';
  • an agnostic would say, 'I don't know whether or not God exists';
  • an ignostic would say, 'I don't know what you mean when you say, "God exists".
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #3

Post by Ooberman »

International Humanist and Ethical Union wrote:The fundamentals of modern Humanism are as follows:
  1. Humanism is ethical. It affirms the worth, dignity and autonomy of the individual and the right of every human being to the greatest possible freedom compatible with the rights of others. Humanists have a duty of care to all of humanity including future generations. Humanists believe that morality is an intrinsic part of human nature based on understanding and a concern for others, needing no external sanction.
  2. Humanism is rational. It seeks to use science creatively, not destructively. Humanists believe that the solutions to the world’s problems lie in human thought and action rather than divine intervention. Humanism advocates the application of the methods of science and free inquiry to the problems of human welfare. But Humanists also believe that the application of science and technology must be tempered by human values. Science gives us the means but human values must propose the ends.
  3. Humanism supports democracy and human rights. Humanism aims at the fullest possible development of every human being. It holds that democracy and human development are matters of right. The principles of democracy and human rights can be applied to many human relationships and are not restricted to methods of government.
  4. Humanism insists that personal liberty must be combined with social responsibility. Humanism ventures to build a world on the idea of the free person responsible to society, and recognises our dependence on and responsibility for the natural world. Humanism is undogmatic, imposing no creed upon its adherents. It is thus committed to education free from indoctrination.
  5. Humanism is a response to the widespread demand for an alternative to dogmatic religion. The world’s major religions claim to be based on revelations fixed for all time, and many seek to impose their world-views on all of humanity. Humanism recognises that reliable knowledge of the world and ourselves arises through a continuing process. of observation, evaluation and revision.
  6. Humanism values artistic creativity and imagination and recognises the transforming power of art. Humanism affirms the importance of literature, music, and the visual and performing arts for personal development and fulfilment.
  7. Humanism is a lifestance aiming at the maximum possible fulfilment through the cultivation of ethical and creative living and offers an ethical and rational means of addressing the challenges of our times. Humanism can be a way of life for everyone everywhere.
Our primary task is to make human beings aware in the simplest terms of what Humanism can mean to them and what it commits them to. By utilising free inquiry, the power of science and creative imagination for the furtherance of peace and in the service of compassion, we have confidence that we have the means to solve the problems that confront us all. We call upon all who share this conviction to associate themselves with us in this endeavour.

Can anyone disagree with this?

If this became the Law of the Land, would people object?
Thinking about God's opinions and thinking about your own opinions uses an identical thought process. - Tomas Rees

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Post #4

Post by jerrygg38 »

Ooberman wrote: [quote="[url=http://iheu.org/humanism/the-amsterdam-declaration/]


Can anyone disagree with this?

If this became the Law of the Land, would people object?
There are people who believe that what we can see and measure amounts to everything. The world beyond our senses does not exist except in the minds of those who dream or hallucinate beyond reality. Humanism is ideal for them.
There are other people who believe that the universe we see and measure is only part of the total universe. The religions are full of people who have had spiritual encounters.
Was the Jewish prophets mere madmen? Did Jesus have any real meaning? Were my own encounters pure insanity or a strange reality? Who can tell? One things for sure, all the religious encounters are similar in that the data received was common to all men once we erase particular tribal custom and foods.
The laws of humanism fit into the religions of man. In fact, the religions came first. Once we eliminate the worship of God from the religions, we obtain justice and ethics for all.
As I conceive of God and the Universe, the creative intelligence demands no worship. It does not take part in any reward nor punishment. It has merely set up a system in which we get what we deserve. Often the humanist will do better than the religious person because the religious person is looking for a reward while the secular humanist is looking to do the right thing.
In effect, the religions of man are the product of man and not God. The creator is quite above such things.

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Post #5

Post by Divine Insight »

Religion was never about morality for me, and never will be about morality.

Why do I say this?

Well, because my morality is my own. I choose to be a moral person by my standards. I always have. Therefore my morality cannot be dependent upon a God, or on religion because my morality is my own.

Now many people might claim that my morality may be "wrong" in the eyes of God. But I don't see how that is possible. If I were to become a religious fanatic I would not need to improve upon my morality. On the contrary I could actually become less moral than I currently am and still qualify for the morality required by their religions.

Therefore my morality does not depend upon a religion or God.

In fact, nobody's morality can depend upon God. If that were true then God would be responsible for the morality of every individual. The extreme irony of religions is that they demand that a person must be responsible for their own morality all the while proclaiming that religion or God is responsible for morality.

That makes absolutely no sense. If a person is going to be held responsible for their own morality, and be judged by their own moral choices, then ever person must necessarily be in charge and thus responsible for their own morality.

Therefore morality cannot have anything at all to do with any God or any religion.

I get totally disgusted with these people who continually act like religion, or being religious has something to do with morality. That's total hogwash.

So I reject the whole notion that religion is about morality.

Religion is entirely about belief in supernatural things. If the religion claims that their God will cast people into a pit of eternal damnation for not believing in him, than it is that God who has morality problems, not humans.

The Abrahamic religions themselves (according to their ancient dogma) are extremely immoral and a bad influence on humanity as a whole. And we see this every day. Both here on these forums where people are constantly arguing over religions, as well as on the streets where religions are the cause of much violence bigotry and bloodshed.

The Abrahamic religions in particular are extremely immoral organizations and the proof is in the news every day.

Religion (specifically the Abrahamic religions) have nothing to do with morality other than the fact that incite immoral behavior.

~~~~

Having said all of the above, I think we do need a new concept to replace these religions. But I'm not sure the concept needs to be secular. I think many people want to believe in something supernatural. So that idea needs to be permitted or at least accepted.

What needs to be done away with are the JEALOUS GOD RELIGIONS!

That is the source of the oxymoronic Pious Immorality. Immorality held out in the name of a God, like Jesus or Allah, in the pretense that this religious immorality is moral because some supposedly jealous God demands it to be so.
[center]Image
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
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Post #6

Post by bluethread »

Thank you, these are two issues that I have been looking at for a while. Atheism and Theism are not religions. For that matter neither are Christianity, Hinduism or Secular Humanism. Those are philosophies or belief systems. The rules of action that one adheres to because of that philosophy or belief system is religion. People often conflate philosophy and religion when speaking of theist. In fact some even conflate theism and religion. These three thing are separate steps from ones view of the universe to ones rules for living. This also exists with regard to atheism. There are various philosophies and belief systems that are atheist and each of those philosophies necessarily spin off a set of rules for living or religion, if you will.

Again, I am glad you started this thread. I could never have done it, because, as a theist, my motives would be in question. I look forward to the various religion killer questions being addressed by the various philosophies under the atheist umbrella.

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Post #7

Post by bluethread »

Let me first address Point #3.

Unlike, some who impose rigid definitions on the sacred documents of others, I will afford the humanists the opportunity to clarify the terms in this manifesto. What is meant by democracy? The general definition is one person, one vote. The manifesto speaks of this principle applying to more than governance. This seems to me to imply egalitarianism. Are these observations accurate?

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Post #8

Post by McCulloch »

[Replying to bluethread]

Humanism is essentially based on the recognition of human rights. Arguably the foundational human right is the right of self determination. But since humans are a social animal, we must relinquish some of our independence in order that our societies can function. To be consistent with our views on human rights and human interdependence , the democratic model presents itself as the best way to govern.

A democratic society is one in which all adults have easily accessible, meaningful, and effective ways:
  1. to participate in the decision-making processes of every organization that makes decisions or takes actions that affect them, and;
  2. to hold other individuals, and those in these organizations who are responsible for making decisions and taking actions, fully accountable if their decisions or actions violate fundamental human rights, or are dishonest, unethical, unfair, secretive, inefficient, unrepresentative, unresponsive or irresponsible;
so that all organizations in the society are citizen-owned, citizen-controlled, and citizen-driven, and all individuals and organizations are held accountable for wrongdoing.
[from Democracy Watch]
Democratic systems must contain the following four elements
  1. A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections
  2. The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life
  3. Protection of the human rights of all citizens.
  4. A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.
It is not enough that our city, national and sub national (state or province) governments are democratic. Agencies, associations, political parties, corporations and even religious groups should be as much as possible, democratic.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Post #9

Post by bluethread »

McCulloch wrote: [Replying to bluethread]

Democratic systems must contain the following four elements
  1. A political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections
  2. The active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life
  3. Protection of the human rights of all citizens.
  4. A rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.
It is not enough that our city, national and sub national (state or province) governments are democratic. Agencies, associations, political parties, corporations and even religious groups should be as much as possible, democratic.
I will address this last part , because, at first blush, the general principles seem reasonable, subject to further interpretation. Specifically the definition of "human rights" and "active participation". For now, it is the expansion of these principles beyond government to all social institutions that concerns me. However they are defined, it is not reasonable to require "human rights", "active participation" and equal application of policies and procedures in a private institution. Where the actions of those institutions fall under the purview of the state, those might possibly apply. However, the well being, involvement and equality of treatment for the member of a private organization is not it's primary function. Such things are best negotiated between parties in arms length transactions as defined by contract law, not governance. Anything more than that violates the concepts of freedom of association and private property. In short, the results would range from fascism to communism and would destroy the checks and balances that make the existence of the four elements possible.

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Post #10

Post by jerrygg38 »

Divine Insight wrote: Religion was never about morality for me, and never will be about morality.

Why do I say this?




Religion is entirely about belief in supernatural things. If the religion claims that their God will cast people into a pit of eternal damnation for not believing in him, than it is that God who has morality problems, not humans.

The Abrahamic religions themselves (according to their ancient dogma) are extremely immoral and a bad influence on humanity as a whole. And we see this every day. Both here on these forums where people are constantly arguing over religions, as well as on the streets where religions are the cause of much violence bigotry and bloodshed.

The Abrahamic religions in particular are extremely immoral organizations and the proof is in the news every day.

Religion (specifically the Abrahamic religions) have nothing to do with morality other than the fact that incite immoral behavior.

~~~~

Having said all of the above, I think we do need a new concept to replace these religions. But I'm not sure the concept needs to be secular. I think many people want to believe in something supernatural. So that idea needs to be permitted or at least accepted.

What needs to be done away with are the JEALOUS GOD RELIGIONS!

That is the source of the oxymoronic Pious Immorality. Immorality held out in the name of a God, like Jesus or Allah, in the pretense that this religious immorality is moral because some supposedly jealous God demands it to be so.
Many people consider themselves as spiritual people and not religious because religions make little sense. What you say is true. The religions of old are quite immoral. They reflect a humanized God with the same attributes as man in both goodness and evil.
My own belief in God is of a creative ethical power that is far above the pettiness of the religious Gods. Religion is about big business and power over the masses.

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