Jesus is God? He is an enigma, John 1:1
Moderator: Moderators
Jesus is God? He is an enigma, John 1:1
Post #1If you were to ask who is Jesus; clearly he is the Son of God. If you asked what is he then I would have to say he is God.
-
Elijah John
- Savant
- Posts: 12235
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: Jesus is God? He is an enigma, John 1:1
Post #2Are you saying "God from God, Light from Light, true God from True God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father"?corky wrote: If you were to ask who is Jesus; clearly he is the Son of God. If you asked what is he then I would have to say he is God.
If one believes that, where is the enigma part you are referring to?
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
McCulloch
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 24063
- Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
- Location: Toronto, ON, CA
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: Jesus is God? He is an enigma, John 1:1
Post #4Corky, what then do you mean when you use the word God? If the word god denotes a class of being, like human then saying that Jesus is the Son of God is the same as saying that Jesus is a god. If the word God denotes a singular being, the one creator of the universe, then saying that Jesus is the Son of God is saying that Jesus is not God but God's son. No one is his own father.corky wrote:If you were to ask who is Jesus; clearly he is the Son of God. If you asked what is he then I would have to say he is God.
So, please, help us by explaining what it is that you mean when you use the word god.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
Re: Jesus is God? He is an enigma, John 1:1
Post #5[Replying to post 4 by McCulloch]
First, God does not denote a class of being. God is a being. If the Father is God why would his Son not bear the same ontological nature. If your Father is human then that makes you human also. Jesus' Father happens to be God, so that makes Jesus God also. I am not saying Jesus is God the Father, but he is God just like his Father.
First, God does not denote a class of being. God is a being. If the Father is God why would his Son not bear the same ontological nature. If your Father is human then that makes you human also. Jesus' Father happens to be God, so that makes Jesus God also. I am not saying Jesus is God the Father, but he is God just like his Father.
-
McCulloch
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 24063
- Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
- Location: Toronto, ON, CA
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: Jesus is God? He is an enigma, John 1:1
Post #6My father was a human. My son is a human. I am a human. If the word god is being used like the word human then we could say :corky wrote: [Replying to post 4 by McCulloch]
First, God does not denote a class of being. God is a being. If the Father is God why would his Son not bear the same ontological nature. If your Father is human then that makes you human also. Jesus' Father happens to be God, so that makes Jesus God also. I am not saying Jesus is God the Father, but he is God just like his Father.
The Father is a god. Jesus, the Son of God is a god.
Clearly, this is heretical by most Christian standards. Therefore, I have to agree with corky that to most Christians, the word god does not denote a class of being.
God is a being, you say. But then you continue on using the word god as if it does denote a class of being. My father was human, and I am human ... two different humans. If Jesus' father being God makes Jesus God as well, then there are two gods. If God is a being, then the Son of God is a separate and distinct being, since one being cannot be his own father.
So, please, help us by explaining what it is that you mean when you use the word god.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
-
Elijah John
- Savant
- Posts: 12235
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: Jesus is God? He is an enigma, John 1:1
Post #7Unless I am missing something, Corky, how are you NOT saying that Jesus is: "God from God...begotton not made.." as the Nicean creed states?McCulloch wrote:My father was a human. My son is a human. I am a human. If the word god is being used like the word human then we could say :corky wrote: [Replying to post 4 by McCulloch]
First, God does not denote a class of being. God is a being. If the Father is God why would his Son not bear the same ontological nature. If your Father is human then that makes you human also. Jesus' Father happens to be God, so that makes Jesus God also. I am not saying Jesus is God the Father, but he is God just like his Father.
The Father is a god. Jesus, the Son of God is a god.
Clearly, this is heretical by most Christian standards. Therefore, I have to agree with corky that to most Christians, the word god does not denote a class of being.
God is a being, you say. But then you continue on using the word god as if it does denote a class of being. My father was human, and I am human ... two different humans. If Jesus' father being God makes Jesus God as well, then there are two gods. If God is a being, then the Son of God is a separate and distinct being, since one being cannot be his own father.
So, please, help us by explaining what it is that you mean when you use the word god.
And I would still like to understand how you consider this all to be an "enigma" especially related to John's prologue.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
Re: Jesus is God? He is an enigma, John 1:1
Post #8[Replying to post 7 by Elijah John]
An enigma is something like a squared-circle. A seeming contradiction... Everyone knows that if you are a man, then you are clearly not God. This is not the case with Jesus Christ. John 1:1 the Word was God... John 1:14 the Word became flesh. The very foundation of the Christian faith believes that God became man. If you do not believe this, then you probably belong to some false cult, knock off brand of Christianity, e.g. Jehovah's witnesses.
An enigma is something like a squared-circle. A seeming contradiction... Everyone knows that if you are a man, then you are clearly not God. This is not the case with Jesus Christ. John 1:1 the Word was God... John 1:14 the Word became flesh. The very foundation of the Christian faith believes that God became man. If you do not believe this, then you probably belong to some false cult, knock off brand of Christianity, e.g. Jehovah's witnesses.
-
McCulloch
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 24063
- Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
- Location: Toronto, ON, CA
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: Jesus is God? He is an enigma, John 1:1
Post #9Here is an old joke: What is the difference between a cult and a legitimate established religion?corky wrote:[...] some false cult, knock off brand of Christianity, e.g. Jehovah's witnesses.
A: usually about 200 years.
You may perceive the Jehovah's Witnesses and other non-Trinitarian Christian groups as cults, but given the subjective nature of religion, it is difficult to consistently maintain that view. Christianity was perceived to be the false cult of the first and second century, a knock off brand of Judaism, if you will.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
-
99percentatheism
- Banned
- Posts: 3083
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:49 am
Re: Jesus is God? He is an enigma, John 1:1
Post #10Why not let John answer that? I believe "The Creator" is a fairly generally accepted definition of God:McCulloch wrote:Corky, what then do you mean when you use the word God? If the word god denotes a class of being, like human then saying that Jesus is the Son of God is the same as saying that Jesus is a god. If the word God denotes a singular being, the one creator of the universe, then saying that Jesus is the Son of God is saying that Jesus is not God but God's son. No one is his own father.corky wrote:If you were to ask who is Jesus; clearly he is the Son of God. If you asked what is he then I would have to say he is God.
So, please, help us by explaining what it is that you mean when you use the word god.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
- John 1
