Christian "Love" for "Homosexuals"

[Haven]

Christian fundamentalists often claim to "love" lesbians, gays, and bisexuals (who they invariably label "homosexuals"), while at the same time actively opposing gay rights, including marriage equality, hate crimes laws, and even decriminalization of same-sex relationships. This seems ridiculous to me, as love implies support, but these individuals certainly don't support LGB people.

Debate question: Is it possible to love gay, lesbian, and bisexual people while opposing gay rights?[/i

[bluethread]

Christian fundamentalists often claim to "love" lesbians, gays, and bisexuals (who they invariably label "homosexuals"), while at the same time actively opposing gay rights, including marriage equality, hate crimes laws, and even decriminalization of same-sex relationships. This seems ridiculous to me, as love implies support, but these individuals certainly don't support LGB people.

Debate question: Is it possible to love gay, lesbian, and bisexual people while opposing gay rights?[/i

Here, is the passage that Yeshua was referring to when He quoted the second greatest commandment.

Lev. 19:17-18 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge , nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD."

[KCKID]

Christian fundamentalists often claim to "love" lesbians, gays, and bisexuals (who they invariably label "homosexuals"), while at the same time actively opposing gay rights, including marriage equality, hate crimes laws, and even decriminalization of same-sex relationships. This seems ridiculous to me, as love implies support, but these individuals certainly don't support LGB people.

Debate question: Is it possible to love gay, lesbian, and bisexual people while opposing gay rights?[/i

Here, is the passage that Yeshua was referring to when He quoted the second greatest commandment.

Lev. 19:17-18 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge , nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD."

For what it's worth, this is the same text from the New International Version: "'Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt." It would appear that 'your brother' in this text is your fellow countryman. Perhaps the same is true of 'your neighbor'. But then you gave the Leviticus (Old Testament) text for some reason. In the NEW Testament Jesus says, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another (John 13:34-35)."

You also highlighted "thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him" as though to imply that homosexuality is a sin for which one should be rebuked BY one's neighbor. Is that correct?

[99percentatheism]

Where is the "love" for the Christian that is trying to get rid of sin and sinning in their life? Where is the "love" from homosexuals for the Christian in the 21st century that is trying to live as a Christian should?

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

- Jesus,

Matthew 7

Should Christians support what is unsupportable? The OP is asking for Christians to love homosexuality. Why not ask for the Christian to "love" the pornography producer . . . which means "loving" the production of porn? Why not show "love" to adulterers that demand that they have an inborn sexual orientation to be promiscuous while married?

. . . As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

"Love" is doing what is right and supporting correct behavior. Not affirming sin. How would a Christian be any different from a non Christian if they showed "love" by supporting sin and sinning? The world is not the place for a Christian to find a cheering throng. In fact, popularity is hardly the what the Gospel preaches.

When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.� So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.�

But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.�

Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.�

- Luke 19

"Love" is action, it is not an politically correct activist movement. And Christian love does not support the world and its ways.

Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

- James 1

This thread could have and should have been about "Gay Fundamentalists" like Mel White's religious organization "soulforce" and the MCC which are already established religious haven's for homosexuals, bi-sexuals and transgendered people. Let Christians that still believe in the fundamentals of appropriate Christian sexual behavior to live as they should. In Christian sexuality, marriage is the appropriate place for that and marriage is man and woman/husband and wife in the New Testament.

[KCKID]

Where is the "love" for the Christian that is trying to get rid of sin and sinning in their life? Where is the "love" from homosexuals for the Christian in the 21st century that is trying to live as a Christian should?

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

- Jesus,

Matthew 7

Should Christians support what is unsupportable? The OP is asking for Christians to love homosexuality. Why not ask for the Christian to "love" the pornography producer . . . which means "loving" the production of porn? Why not show "love" to adulterers that demand that they have an inborn sexual orientation to be promiscuous while married?

. . . As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

"Love" is doing what is right and supporting correct behavior. Not affirming sin. How would a Christian be any different from a non Christian if they showed "love" by supporting sin and sinning? The world is not the place for a Christian to find a cheering throng. In fact, popularity is hardly the what the Gospel preaches.

When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.� So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.�

But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.�

Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.�

- Luke 19

"Love" is action, it is not an politically correct activist movement. And Christian love does not support the world and its ways.

Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

- James 1

This thread could have and should have been about "Gay Fundamentalists" like Mel White's religious organization "soulforce" and the MCC which are already established religious haven's for homosexuals, bi-sexuals and transgendered people. Let Christians that still believe in the fundamentals of appropriate Christian sexual behavior to live as they should. In Christian sexuality, marriage is the appropriate place for that and marriage is man and woman/husband and wife in the New Testament.

The comments contained in the post above are the very opposite of, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another (John 13:34-35)."

Therefore, the comments contained in the above post would surely be contradictory of Jesus Christ, would they not?

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 3 by KCKID]

Leviticus18:22and 20:13 forbid a man lying with another man as one would with a woman. Leviticus was originally written in Hebrew, but Paul was a Greek-educated Jew writing to Gentiles in Greek, the common language of the day, and probably was using the Greek translation of the Old Testament available in that day, the Septuagint, or LXX, for his Scripture quotations.

The Greek translation of these Leviticus passages condemns a man (arseno) lying with (koitai) another man (arseno); these words (excuse the pun) lie side-by-side in these passages in Leviticus. Paul joins these two words together into a neologism, a new word (as we do in saying database or software), and thus he condemns in 1Corinthians and 1Timothy what was condemned in Leviticus.

- http://www.equip.org/articles/is-arseno ... an-books-4

It is the responsibility of "the gay community" to end the accusatory and litigious actions towards Christians that will not, have not and cannot endorse homosexuality. Trying to redefine gay behavior as "marriage equality" may work in the secular world (and its ways) and indeed IS, but there is no equaling a man as another man's husband and a woman as another woman's wife, in Christian reality. There is not one place of support for redefining marriage anywhere in the entire New Testament. When homosexuals and bi-sexuals have their victory for their kinds of marriages in society, and in whatever secular or newly invented religious world and worldview they create, Christians that stand firm on the immutability of Christian marriage, will still be honest and upright people for doing so.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

Matthew 19:3-12 The Pharisees were desirous of drawing something from Jesus which they might represent as contrary to the law of Moses. Cases about marriage have been numerous, and sometimes perplexed; made so, not by the law of God, but by the lusts and follies of men; and often people fix what they will do, before they ask for advice. Jesus replied by asking whether they had not read the account of the creation, and the first example of marriage; thus pointing out that every departure therefrom was wrong.

- http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-5.htm

[bluethread]

For what it's worth, this is the same text from the New International Version: "'Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt." It would appear that 'your brother' in this text is your fellow countryman. Perhaps the same is true of 'your neighbor'. But then you gave the Leviticus (Old Testament) text for some reason. In the NEW Testament Jesus says, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another (John 13:34-35)."

You also highlighted "thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him" as though to imply that homosexuality is a sin for which one should be rebuked BY one's neighbor. Is that correct?

You are correct that this is the rule for those who wish to be Adonai's people. However, I see no example of Yeshua supporting homosexual behavior or violating Torah in an y way. Yes, I do believe that "(i)f a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination".

[99percentatheism]

Where is the "love" for the Christian that is trying to get rid of sin and sinning in their life? Where is the "love" from homosexuals for the Christian in the 21st century that is trying to live as a Christian should?

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

- Jesus,

Matthew 7

Should Christians support what is unsupportable? The OP is asking for Christians to love homosexuality. Why not ask for the Christian to "love" the pornography producer . . . which means "loving" the production of porn? Why not show "love" to adulterers that demand that they have an inborn sexual orientation to be promiscuous while married?

. . . As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

"Love" is doing what is right and supporting correct behavior. Not affirming sin. How would a Christian be any different from a non Christian if they showed "love" by supporting sin and sinning? The world is not the place for a Christian to find a cheering throng. In fact, popularity is hardly the what the Gospel preaches.

When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.� So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.�

But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.�

Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.�

- Luke 19

"Love" is action, it is not an politically correct activist movement. And Christian love does not support the world and its ways.

Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

- James 1

This thread could have and should have been about "Gay Fundamentalists" like Mel White's religious organization "soulforce" and the MCC which are already established religious haven's for homosexuals, bi-sexuals and transgendered people. Let Christians that still believe in the fundamentals of appropriate Christian sexual behavior to live as they should. In Christian sexuality, marriage is the appropriate place for that and marriage is man and woman/husband and wife in the New Testament.

The comments contained in the post above are the very opposite of, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another (John 13:34-35)."

Therefore, the comments contained in the above post would surely be contradictory of Jesus Christ, would they not?

No they would not.

Love the sinner but hate the sin is not a hate crime. It is not phobia and it is not non Christian behavior.

The writer of the letters of John would more than likely be OK with Jesus.

1 John 2:

9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

And:

15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

Love for the sinner does not mean supporting their sins and sinning.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Galatians 1

[Haven]

It is the responsibility of "the gay community" to end the accusatory and litigious actions towards Christians that will not, have not and cannot endorse homosexuality.

This will never happen. Christian extremists (obviously not all Christians are discriminatory) are free to believe what they want, but when they want to actively discriminate against gay people (for example, in housing, employment, business, etc.), they should expect to get sued.

[KCKID]

For what it's worth, this is the same text from the New International Version: "'Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt." It would appear that 'your brother' in this text is your fellow countryman. Perhaps the same is true of 'your neighbor'. But then you gave the Leviticus (Old Testament) text for some reason. In the NEW Testament Jesus says, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another (John 13:34-35)."

You also highlighted "thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him" as though to imply that homosexuality is a sin for which one should be rebuked BY one's neighbor. Is that correct?

You are correct that this is the rule for those who wish to be Adonai's people. However, I see no example of Yeshua supporting homosexual behavior or violating Torah in an y way. Yes, I do believe that "(i)f a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination".

For what it's worth, this is the same text from the New International Version: "'Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt." It would appear that 'your brother' in this text is your fellow countryman. Perhaps the same is true of 'your neighbor'. But then you gave the Leviticus (Old Testament) text for some reason. In the NEW Testament Jesus says, "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another (John 13:34-35)."

You also highlighted "thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him" as though to imply that homosexuality is a sin for which one should be rebuked BY one's neighbor. Is that correct?

You are correct that this is the rule for those who wish to be Adonai's people. However, I see no example of Yeshua supporting homosexual behavior or violating Torah in an y way. Yes, I do believe that "(i)f a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination".

If you truly believe this then you would also believe that those who violate this command should be put to death, would you not? And, of course, there are more commands in the Torah - that you would also believe in, I guess? - that call for the execution of those that violate a number of these commands. How does one determine which, out of all of those rather ludicrous (to modern thinking) commands, one believes in and which ones they do not? Moreover, those commands that DO call for the death penalty, "...am I morally obligated to kill violators myself or is it okay to call the police?"*

*Quoted by Martin Sheen from the TV series West Wing.