Is Western civilization based on Judeo-Christian values?

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McCulloch
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Is Western civilization based on Judeo-Christian values?

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

WinePusher wrote:The United States is implicitly Christian, not explicitly Christian. These are two different concepts that both theists and nontheists have a hard time understanding. The United States, and all of western culture, is based upon Judeo-Christian values and virtues and Christianity in particular has played a vital role in the history of the west, far more than any other religion or philosophy has. Had Islamic expansion into Europe been more successful during the Middle Ages the United States and the rest of the west would probably be implicitly and explicitly Islamic.
Is the United States based on Judeo-Christian values? Is Western culture based on Judeo-Christian values?

What are Judeo-Christian values? Specifically, which Judeo-Christian values is Western civilization built on?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Re: Is Western civilization based on Judeo-Christian values?

Post #2

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 1 by McCulloch]

I think culturally we are Judeo-Christian, and the popluation of Christians dominates. Legally? Not as much, especially in the U.S with the seperation of Church and State having the weight of law. (Is it that way in Canada too?)

The closest folks in the US can come to legitimately claiming the US legal system is built on Judeo-Christian values is citing the 10 Commandments, but even then, not the first four, as we do not live in a theocracy. The remainder deal with human relations each to each other, and are pretty much universal.

Folks who often claim we are a Christian nation ignore the fact that the U S founders were largely Deist, or Christian Deists, and the early documents reflect a Deistic enshrinement of Reason, Freedom, Classical values (Greco-Roman influence) and Enlightenment values.

Behaviorally? Despite the profession of Christianity, (especially in the US) Western Civ in the modern day often falls short of Christian and Jewish ideals. Aggression and competiton is championed above humility and meekness, and rampart materialism ("he who dies with the most toys, wins", reads a well known bumper-sticker) over Spiritual values and "treasure in Heaven".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

zeromeansnothing

Post #3

Post by zeromeansnothing »

McCulloch :What are Judeo-Christian values? Specifically, which Judeo-Christian values is Western civilization built on?

I personally see little connect between the Judaic and the Christian. This would suggest that a Judeo-Christian set of recognizable norms are non-existent but rather a Christian quasi-Judaic creation.

The main reason I state this is the 'expansive' 'colonialism' that characterizes Christian and Western cultural trends is non-existent within Judaism. Perhaps bluethread might comment on this as a person who might know about the validity of my statement here.

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Post #4

Post by Elijah John »

[Replying to post 3 by zeromeansnothing]

I think the Ten Commandments is the common link between Christianity and Judaism, and thus the formation of Judeo-Christian values.

Originally meant for Jews only, they have certainly been adopted by Christianity as well.

And speaking as a non-Jew, I think your assertion that Judaism is not an expansionist, colonizing culture is borne out by observation.

Judaism was a proseltyizing religion in the time of the Roman Empire, until the time of revolt. Then Christianity filled that niche.

Today, I understand that many Jews consider Christianity AND Islam as "daughter religions" and their mark have been left on both the cultures and the governments of Western society.

But theirs is not the only influence, as I pointed out earlier, Deism, the Enlightenment, and Greco-Roman ideas have also had tremendous influence.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Post #5

Post by bluethread »

zeromeansnothing wrote: McCulloch :What are Judeo-Christian values? Specifically, which Judeo-Christian values is Western civilization built on?

I personally see little connect between the Judaic and the Christian. This would suggest that a Judeo-Christian set of recognizable norms are non-existent but rather a Christian quasi-Judaic creation.

The main reason I state this is the 'expansive' 'colonialism' that characterizes Christian and Western cultural trends is non-existent within Judaism. Perhaps bluethread might comment on this as a person who might know about the validity of my statement here.
Let me preface this by saying that I am neither Jewish nor Christian. However, having things in common with both, I must say that both have been greatly influenced by Greco/Roman culture. Christians generally appear to work from a romantic world view, which they inherited from the RCC. Also, it is my understanding that there has been an ongoing battle between Hellenized and Orthodox Jews for millennia. That said, I think the argument is one of correlation and causation. There has clearly been a correlation between rabbinic, papal and congregational jurisprudence and that of these United States. However, I believe that it is presumptuous to argue that the jurisprudence of these United States has been directly caused by those influences. The nations have always engaged in piecemeal adaptation. I think that is why people feel justified in arguing that HaTorah is an amalgam of ancient near east law and culture. I, however, respectfully disagree with that.

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Re: Is Western civilization based on Judeo-Christian values?

Post #6

Post by McCulloch »

Elijah John wrote:I think culturally we are Judeo-Christian, and the population of Christians dominates.
Perhaps, but I would think that in reality our culture might be best described as post-Christian Enlightenment. We have many of the cultural observances of Christianity (holidays etc.) but few cultural values that are distinctly Christian. Jewish, not so much. Jewish holidays are perceived as other, as is Jewish cuisine.
Elijah John wrote:Legally? Not as much, especially in the U.S with the separation of Church and State having the weight of law. (Is it that way in Canada too?)
We borrowed much of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (a part of our constitution) from the American Bill of Rights (we ignored the gun owning part), so yes, Canada is a de facto secular state. Our ceremonial Head of State, the monarch, is obliged under UK law to be a member of the Anglican church, but Canadian law makes no such requirement.
Elijah John wrote:The closest folks in the US can come to legitimately claiming the US legal system is built on Judeo-Christian values is citing the 10 Commandments, but even then, not the first four, as we do not live in a theocracy. The remainder deal with human relations each to each other, and are pretty much universal.
Any public allegiance to the ten commandments is ceremonial not actual. The only parts of the Decalogue that we pay attention to are not distinctly Christian in nature.
Elijah John wrote:Behaviorally? Despite the profession of Christianity, (especially in the US) Western Civ in the modern day often falls short of Christian and Jewish ideals. Aggression and competition is championed above humility and meekness, and rampart materialism ("he who dies with the most toys, wins", reads a well known bumper-sticker) over Spiritual values and "treasure in Heaven".
Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is not a Biblical set of goals, is it?



It has been pointed out, that the idea of the separation of Religion from Government is a Christian idea, probably originally because political power was so far out of reach to the Christians in their formative period that the idea was not considered. Christianity began as a powerless minority, so naturally they had to develop ideas of their own independence from governmental power, without necessarily rebelling from it. This idea of separation, if it really existed, was then largely forgotten by Christianity as it became dominant in Europe, not to be re-introduced until the sixteenth century. Although, a remnant of that separation, the power struggle that Emperors and Kings had with the Pope, remained as a reminder of the separation.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

zeromeansnothing

Post #7

Post by zeromeansnothing »

I seem to always disagree. Let me take these in the sequence that they were presented within.

Elijah John:I think the Ten Commandments is the common link between Christianity and Judaism, and thus the formation of Judeo-Christian values.

zero reply: There is almost no correlation between an OT code of social conduct to a Yahweh and a Christian/Universal Morality based on an Afterlife. This is the difference between a pineapple and a Signapore sling.

bluethread:'' I must say that both have been greatly influenced by Greco/Roman culture.''

zero: Has this happened to orthodox Judaism? I do not think so? Has it?

McCulloch: ''Christianity began as a powerless minority, so naturally they had to develop ideas of their own independence from governmental power, without necessarily rebelling from it.''

zero: I struggle to see a real point here. After all a tree was a seed once. Does the tree resemble the seed in any relevant way. Do modern, wealth-laden, influential, Christian Churchs have any original content left within them. I doubt it. They have moved on and are now 'something else' The American constitution was Christian and was without any real indication of Judaism. Is this not true??

Correct me here. Please!

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Post #8

Post by DanieltheDragon »

With regards to western civilization I can see some influence from Judeo-Christian values. However to make the claim that these various cultures are based on Judeo-Christian values is an extreme stretch. The age of enlightenment basically gave birth to modern Western Civilization. This re-discovery of Roman and Greek concepts produced much of what is the basis for modern western Civilization i.e. Rule of Law and democracy. Before the age of enlightenment you could say western civilization was based on Judeo-Christian Values. However this is no longer the case not even remotely close.

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Post #9

Post by bluethread »

zeromeansnothing wrote:
bluethread:'' I must say that both have been greatly influenced by Greco/Roman culture.''

zero: Has this happened to orthodox Judaism? I do not think so? Has it?
As far as I know, there is some spill over do to the necessity to live in modern secular society. However, there is much less among the orthodox than the conservative, reformed and reconstructed. The conservatives tend to be pragmatically Hellenized in public life, the Reformed appear to see observance as a personal thing and the Reconstructed strike me as fully Hellenized. That's just my view from the outside, However. As I said I am not Jewish and my experience is from occasional interaction.

zeromeansnothing

Post #10

Post by zeromeansnothing »

DanieltheDragon :Before the age of enlightenment you could say western civilization was based on Judeo-Christian Values. However this is no longer the case not even remotely close.

Is commercialism/consumerism/capitalism and global economics the result of this enlightenment?

You never make any sense to me DTD. Are you saying that an age of enlightenment,, or an age of reason was an actual significance. So people suddenly knew better and dropped all the religious rubbish they had in their heads. When did that happen??? Buy a paper tomorrow, and you will see how far the majestic reason of mankind has blossomed and evolved. Page 3, pseudo-Christian pornography, sports page, a tournament in a ghetto, politics you can have the Ukraine, Syria, Iraq or Iran or the West Bank Hostages. You can follow the Jihadists to Nigeria and Ethiopia. Look at the figures for religious populations in the world. Look at the absolute desecration of the earth's environment and look finally at the nonsense that is scientific endeavour. I was reading a post by arian about this, on another thread that had me head scratching. I will post it here. Age of Enlightenment, that's a laugh.

This is truly good stuff.

arian:Think people? Why do we have this insatiable desire to go to Mars? Where did all the Star Trek and all them other planetary exploration ideas arise from? Why do we love it so much? It is because it has always been the plan, and it is in us just like the desire to have children. No one can honestly deny this, the universe is out there calling us. But what are we doing instead? We are planning to depopulate even the starting planet earth, just as we are aborting our children, the very reason of our existence.

ps: Try this Age of Enlightenment argument from Iran this week.
We are going to get involved with the military conflict in Iraq because many of the holiest Shiite sites are under threat. Sure, that's the reason!

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