Were apostles "martyred for their faith?"

[Zzyzx]

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Church tradition. lore, and sermons tell of the apostles and Paul/Saul being martyred. Is there evidence that they were actually killed for their faith? When and by whom? Is their death described in bible accounts and non-biblical accounts?

If there is little no available information about their deaths, why assume and retell the martyr tales – other than that doing so makes a good "moralistic" story.

[Divine Insight]

If there is little no available information about their deaths, why assume and retell the martyr tales – other than that doing so makes a good "moralistic" story.

Why would this make a good "moralistic" story?

What kind of a God would actually be appeased by having everyone who places blind faith in him brutally killed by other humans for believing in this God?

Where is there any morality in that?

[Zzyzx]

.

Where is there any morality in that?

I was thinking that the "moral of the story" was "willing to die for the faith" and claimed morality of the "martyrs" being evidence of the strength of their belief -- NOT that the whole proposed scenario was moral in any sense of the word.

[connermt]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

This sounds like a more 'historical' question. The bible isn't known for hits historical accuracy. I wonder were would be other books to research such great men?

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

"Surely the apostles would not have willingly gone to their martyrs deaths in such horrible ways for something they knew to be a lie." This overwhelmingly prevalent opinion among Christian DC&R newbie's is practically their first line of defense for the well established "truth" of the risen Jesus. They almost universally consider it to be a well known and established fact. And what is the basis for this assertion? Is it to be found in scripture? NOPE! Chapter 12 of Acts indicates that James the brother of John was executed by Herod Agrippa. And that's the extent of what scripture has to say about the ultimate deaths of any of the rest of the apostles, including Paul. Is it a known historical fact then? NOPE! History recorded NONE of this. So upon what is the belief, so widely and unquestioningly held by Christians, that the apostles were uniformly martyred in various grizzly ways based? It's largely based on "Foxe's Book of Martyrs," first published in England in 1554. And as one might suspect of a work of faith published by the Christian faithful fifteen hundred years after the events it depicts, it's a work made up entirely of large doses of unfounded traditions, wishful thinking and pure make believe. Like virtually all of Christian claims, the apostles uniformly underwent martyrs deaths because Christians have declared it to be so.

[historia]

Church tradition. lore, and sermons tell of the apostles and Paul/Saul being martyred. Is there evidence that they were actually killed for their faith? When and by whom? Is their death described in bible accounts and non-biblical accounts?

A number of early sources mention that at least some of the apostles were persecuted and killed.

Luke, of course, records that King Herod had James, the son of Zebedee, killed (Acts 12:1-2). The epilogue to John alludes to the fact that Peter was crucified (John 21:18-19). Matthew (20:22-23) records Jesus saying that the disciples would meet a fate similar to his own, which, if not from the lips of Jesus himself, then likely reflects knowledge of martyrdom of (some of) the apostles in the early Christian community.

Outside of the New Testament, Josephus rather famously mentions that James, the brother of Jesus, was killed by Ananus (Antiquities 20.9.1), although doesn't mention why. Clement, writing at the end of the first century, mentions that both Peter and Paul were persecuted and gave their testimony (Greek martureo, from which our English word 'martyr' is derived) before dying and going to their place of glory (1 Clement 5:1-6). Ignatius, writing early in the second century, also refers to Paul as a martyr (Letter to the Ephesians 12:2).

There is, of course, a strong focus on martyrdom in early Christian writings, which makes sense if many of the community's leaders suffered that fate. We might suspect that this, in turn, lead to legendary accounts of all of the apostles dying in this way. But I see no reason to doubt that Peter, Paul, and some of the other apostles did, in fact, die for their faith.

[Zzyzx]

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But I see no reason to doubt that Peter, Paul, and some of the other apostles did, in fact, die for their faith.

Christian scholars and theologians acknowledge lack of knowledge regarding the death of Paul/Saul. The reason for execution of James, you acknowledge, is not known to have been his religious beliefs.

What Jesus may have predicted is no guarantee of actual cause of death.

How many of the 12 (13 counting Paul/Saul) does that leave unaccounted? Ten? Eleven?

Would it not be more accurate to say that information we have available indicates that one or two of the Apostles may have been executed for their faith?

[historia]

Christian scholars and theologians acknowledge lack of knowledge regarding the death of Paul/Saul.

Well, it's true that we don't have absolute knowledge of how Paul died. But, then again, we don't have absolute knowledge of much of anything in the ancient world. We have a couple of early sources that tell us he died as a martyr. That's about as good as it gets.

What Jesus may have predicted is no guarantee of actual cause of death.

Assuming, of course, that this saying goes back to Jesus himself. If not, then it may reflect knowledge within the Christian community of the apostles being killed. But I'm repeating myself now.

Would it not be more accurate to say that information we have available indicates that one or two of the Apostles may have been executed for their faith?

Yeah, I think the evidence points to three or four being martyred; of course, those are also three or four of the community's most prominent members. Perhaps our sources merely focused on them because of their position, not because they were the only ones who suffered this fate.

[Goat]

Church tradition. lore, and sermons tell of the apostles and Paul/Saul being martyred. Is there evidence that they were actually killed for their faith? When and by whom? Is their death described in bible accounts and non-biblical accounts?

A number of early sources mention that at least some of the apostles were persecuted and killed.

Luke, of course, records that King Herod had James, the son of Zebedee, killed (Acts 12:1-2). The epilogue to John alludes to the fact that Peter was crucified (John 21:18-19). Matthew (20:22-23) records Jesus saying that the disciples would meet a fate similar to his own, which, if not from the lips of Jesus himself, then likely reflects knowledge of martyrdom of (some of) the apostles in the early Christian community.

Outside of the New Testament, Josephus rather famously mentions that James, the brother of Jesus, was killed by Ananus (Antiquities 20.9.1), although doesn't mention why. Clement, writing at the end of the first century, mentions that both Peter and Paul were persecuted and gave their testimony (Greek martureo, from which our English word 'martyr' is derived) before dying and going to their place of glory (1 Clement 5:1-6). Ignatius, writing early in the second century, also refers to Paul as a martyr (Letter to the Ephesians 12:2).

There is, of course, a strong focus on martyrdom in early Christian writings, which makes sense if many of the community's leaders suffered that fate. We might suspect that this, in turn, lead to legendary accounts of all of the apostles dying in this way. But I see no reason to doubt that Peter, Paul, and some of the other apostles did, in fact, die for their faith.

Of course, there are historians who thing the phrase 'known as Christ' is an interpolation. Josephus got to his position by telling Vespasian that he was the awaited for Messiah, so calling someone else would be against his personal self interest.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to historia]

A number of early sources mention that at least some of the apostles were persecuted and killed.

Would you consider a book published this year on Mark Twain to be an "early source?" Mark Twain died just over a hundred years ago. In fact many of the sources for the various stories concerning the "martyrdom" of the various apostles date from the late second and early third centuries. These are hardly "early sources."

The epilogue to John alludes to the fact that Peter was crucified (John 21:18-19).

[18] "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
[19] This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me."

There is not the slightest hint of crucifixion in these lines. Like so much else of Christian belief, Christians have simply read that interpretation into the text because they find it satisfying to do so. The story of Peter being crucified by the Romans upside down at his own request is taken directly from the Acts of Peter. The apocryphal Acts of Peter is a late second century document of unknown authorship which even the most ardent Christians have long dismissed at a pure flight of fantasy. It represents exactly what virtually ALL Christian tradition is founded on... baseless assumption and pure flights of fantasy that serve to enhance the drama of the make believe.

Matthew (20:22-23) records Jesus saying that the disciples would meet a fate similar to his own, which, if not from the lips of Jesus himself, then likely reflects knowledge of martyrdom of (some of) the apostles in the early Christian community.

[21] And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
[22] But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
[23] And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Even in the words put into his mouth by an unknown individual decades after Jesus was dead, there is no reference to the apostles dying in hideously violent ways to be found in these passages. Such assumptions have to be read into the text.

Clement, writing at the end of the first century, mentions that both Peter and Paul were persecuted and gave their testimony (Greek martureo, from which our English word 'martyr' is derived) before dying and going to their place of glory (1 Clement 5:1-6).

1Clem 5:1
But, to pass from the examples of ancient days, let us come to those
champions who lived nearest to our time. Let us set before us the
noble examples which belong to our generation.

1Clem 5:2
"By reason of jealousy and envy the greatest and most righteous
pillars of the Church were persecuted, and contended even unto death."

1Clem 5:3
"Let us set before our eyes the good Apostles."

1Clem 5:4
"There was Peter who by reason of unrighteous jealousy endured not one
not one but many labors, and thus having borne his testimony went to
his appointed place of glory."

1Clem 5:5
"By reason of jealousy and strife Paul by his example pointed out the
prize of patient endurance. After that he had been seven times in
bonds, had been driven into exile, had been stoned, had preached in
the East and in the West, he won the noble renown which was the
reward of his faith,"

1Clem 5:6
"having taught righteousness unto the whole world and having reached
the farthest bounds of the West; and when he had borne his testimony
before the rulers, so he departed from the world and went unto the
holy place, having been found a notable pattern of patient endurance."

Like so many of Christian religious writings 1Clement was written anonymously and has been attributed to Clement of Rome by tradition. As such it's dating is based on assumption and tradition. Although referred to and known to have existed historically, the first complete copy of 1Clement was not discovered until 1628. And as we can see above, what 1Clement says about Peter and Paul is that they have since passed into martyrdom, but makes no mention of them dying in violent ways. Acts ends with Paul having been taken to Rome and kept under house arrest. Since Paul was a Roman citizen and therefore not subject to being crucified, it has long been assumed by Christians that Paul was beheaded. But these is absolutely no support for this assumption either in scripture or by historical record. It simply makes a good story for Christians to tell each other.

There is, of course, a strong focus on martyrdom in early Christian writings, which makes sense if many of the community's leaders suffered that fate. We might suspect that this, in turn, lead to legendary accounts of all of the apostles dying in this way. But I see no reason to doubt that Peter, Paul, and some of the other apostles did, in fact, die for their faith.

Do you see a good reason to doubt stories of hordes of dead people coming up out of their graves and wandering the streets, and of a flying reanimated corpse? Or do you perceive levels of make believe which are more reasonable then others, which therefore allows the freedom to assume? And would you call that GOOD HISTORY?