Astronomical predictions vs. Religious prophesies

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Zzyzx
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Astronomical predictions vs. Religious prophesies

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

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Astronomers predict lunar and solar eclipses with great precision – often years or decades in advance. Their predictions repeatedly prove to be true.

Religious "prophets" make prophesies (such as "the end of the world" or "the second coming") that have invariable proved to be false.

Why are astronomers so right and prophets so wrong?
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Post #2

Post by Pazuzu bin Hanbi »

Forgive me for throwing Islam into the mix, but as an ex-muslim, that religion played an important part of my life for so long.

I'd like to point out that astronomers can also predict, with alarming accuracy, precisely when jinn try to do sneaky things and get pelted by angels - because according to the qur'an meteors are angels throwing stones at naught jinns.
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Re: Astronomical predictions vs. Religious prophesies

Post #3

Post by 1213 »

Zzyzx wrote: .
Astronomers predict lunar and solar eclipses with great precision – often years or decades in advance. Their predictions repeatedly prove to be true.

Religious "prophets" make prophesies (such as "the end of the world" or "the second coming") that have invariable proved to be false.

Why are astronomers so right and prophets so wrong?
I think astronomers don’t predict, they calculate. And by calculations they say that something happens, (if things go as calculated).

Also prophets don’t predict, they tell what they know will happen. (If they are false prophets, their sayings probably will not happen).

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Re: Astronomical predictions vs. Religious prophesies

Post #4

Post by Zzyzx »

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1213 wrote: I think astronomers don’t predict,
The term "predict" is defined as: "To state, tell about, or make known in advance, especially on the basis of special knowledge".

Do you wish to change the definition?

If astronomers say that solar eclipses will occur on August 29 and October 23 of this year, March 20 and September 13 next year they are somehow NOT predicting those events in advance?
1213 wrote: they calculate. And by calculations they say that something happens,
Correction: Astronomers use calculations to predict future events. They base their predictions on observation of the real world.
1213 wrote: (if things go as calculated).
Astronomers have been accurately predicting eclipses for a long time – with no exceptions in modern times.

Can the same be said for religious prophesies?
1213 wrote: Also prophets don’t predict, they tell what they know will happen.
Evidently much of what "prophets know" has not proved to be correct.
1213 wrote: (If they are false prophets, their sayings probably will not happen).
I do not disagree – and observe many revered "prophets" have foretold things that did not happen (evidently including Jesus). Also, some of the supposed prophesies appear to have been recorded AFTER the events "foretold." False prophets?
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Re: Astronomical predictions vs. Religious prophesies

Post #5

Post by Divine Insight »

1213 wrote: (If they are false prophets, their sayings probably will not happen).
Matt.24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark.13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke.21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Evidently Jesus was a false prophet then since the claims he made did not happen before the generation to which he was speaking had passed.

So even as a prophet we must conclude that he was a false prophet.
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Post #6

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

[Replying to Pazuzu bin Hanbi]
Pazuzu bin Hanbi wrote: Forgive me for throwing Islam into the mix, but as an ex-muslim, that religion played an important part of my life for so long.

I'd like to point out that astronomers can also predict, with alarming accuracy, precisely when jinn try to do sneaky things and get pelted by angels - because according to the qur'an meteors are angels throwing stones at naught jinns.
My great grandmother use to tell me, when I was a little guy, that the "falling stars" we saw in the night sky were fallen angels; the souls of individuals whom God was throwing out of heaven for misbehavior of some kind. This was what she had been told by her mother as a young girl, and the thought that individuals could make it to heaven only to eventually be expelled upset her so badly that she would refuse to go out after dark, so that she wouldn't be forced to witness this great tragedy. My mother told her that "falling stars" were really tiny bits of space gravel burning up in the atmosphere. But my grandmother's response was, "Oh, how do "they" know that?" Unfortunately this sort of ignorance still exists to this day, with devout believers refusing to believe that "they" (scientists) know what they are talking about whenever established scientific observation serves to contradict preferred established religious make believe. We have come so far in our knowledge of the universe, and yet Ignorance and superstition may still end up being the downfall of all of us if we allow it.
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Re: Astronomical predictions vs. Religious prophesies

Post #7

Post by 1213 »

Zzyzx wrote: .
1213 wrote: I think astronomers don’t predict,
The term "predict" is defined as: "To state, tell about, or make known in advance, especially on the basis of special knowledge".

Do you wish to change the definition?
That’s ok. I understood it first differently.
Zzyzx wrote:I do not disagree – and observe many revered "prophets" have foretold things that did not happen (evidently including Jesus).
I disagree with that.

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Re: Astronomical predictions vs. Religious prophesies

Post #8

Post by 1213 »

Divine Insight wrote:
1213 wrote: (If they are false prophets, their sayings probably will not happen).
Matt.24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark.13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke.21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Evidently Jesus was a false prophet then since the claims he made did not happen before the generation to which he was speaking had passed.

So even as a prophet we must conclude that he was a false prophet.
I think Jesus means with his saying that generation, which sees the things happen, not the generation that was with him that day. Also it may be possible that all those things that he told happened already. That is why Jesus is not in my opinion false prophet.

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Re: Astronomical predictions vs. Religious prophesies

Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

1213 wrote: Also it may be possible that all those things that he told happened already. That is why Jesus is not in my opinion false prophet.
I often offer this as a possible valid interpretation of the Christian story to Christians.

But stop and think about the consequences of this. If when Jesus was alive he was prophesying that he would return and take with him only the saintly people who were both dead and alive and that only few would make it, then his supposed resurrection would have been that return. The saints that rose from their graves with Jesus would have been the dead who Jesus had retrieved, along with a few other living people would have been taken by Jesus from the fields. They were probably so few in number that no one at the time noticed any significant difference between people just turning up missing naturally versus the rapture of a few. The rest of humanity would then be left behind as Jesus' rejects.

And if that is the truth of this story then we are nothing other than the descendents of the people that Jesus rejected. There would then be no hope for eternal life for anyone living on planet earth today. And even though Jesus may have been real, Christianity today would be a total misunderstanding of what he was saying. So Christianity would still be dead false.

So it seems funny to me that the apologetic excuse that Jesus might have actually come back in a timely manner as he had prophesied would ultimately render Christian useless to anyone living today. We would all be nothing more than the descendents of the rejects of Jesus.

So this apology saves Jesus and dooms all of modern humanity and modern Christianity. That's not a very optimistic apology for Christianity. We'd all be helplessly doomed with not even any hope of salvation.
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Re: Astronomical predictions vs. Religious prophesies

Post #10

Post by 1213 »

Divine Insight wrote:
1213 wrote: Also it may be possible that all those things that he told happened already. That is why Jesus is not in my opinion false prophet.
I often offer this as a possible valid interpretation of the Christian story to Christians.

But stop and think about the consequences of this. ...
I read the whole Matt. 24 again, and I think all those things have not happened already. Therefore I stay on the explanation that Jesus speaks of that generation that sees that all the listed things have happened.

Now from the fig tree learn this parable. When its branch has now become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that the summer is near. Even so you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Most assuredly I tell you, this [the same that sees] generation will not pass away, until all these things are accomplished.
Matt. 24:32-34

The word “this� can be translated to mean “the same� and then the scripture would be "the same generation that sees all those things, will not pass away".

I think Jesus was not defining who will be that last generation, because he says also:

But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matt. 24:36

The idea was to tell all things before, so that his disciples would know in what time they are.

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