Is the holy spirit a sham?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:20 pm

Christians in general claim that the holy spirit exists. They claim the holy spirit guides them when reading scripture and reveals to them the true interpretation of the passage they are reading. You would think that if this is the case then there would be unity amongst Christians. They would be reading scripture and easily coming to a consensus on what its saying, even the most ambiguous parts of the bible.

However we know in reality this just doesnt happen, evidenced by the fact there are thousands of denominations and cults, all believing different things. It seems that no two Christians can agree on what the bible is saying. There will always be conflict.

As a former Christian I can testify to the fact that Christians can never agree. This is why bible study groups are so good, because theres always debate. Theres always differing opinions. Many a time you will hear the words I never thought of it that way before said in a bible study group. Further evidence that no holy spirit is guiding anyone.

It seems every Christian believes they are true Christians being guided by the holy spirit, while those who believe differently are not really true Christians or are being deceived by some other power. This seems like a real con job to me that Christians have fallen for.

I have heard the argument that demons are responsible for leading Christians astray in their interpretation of the bible. Yet more evidence that the concept of a holy spirit is a scam. So we have the majority of Christians being misled by demoniac forces apparently. But really, if these forces do exist and they are manipulating people, doesnt that mean that the holy spirit is weak? That these so-called demon influences are far greater than the holy spirit?

Im willing to bet that anyone who claims to be a Christian, led by the holy spirit would never be able to find even one other Christian that believes exactly as they do. Im sure every Christian knows other Christians who they believe are true Christians, holy spirit led and full of Godly wisdom. Im willing to bet if they sat down with that person and went over the bible with a fine tooth comb, using the holy spirit to guide them they would still not come to an agreement on what it says. There would be debate and there would be disagreements. Even if ultimately they came down to an agreement on all issues in the end, it would not be until after hours and hours of discussion.

Isnt the reality of the situation is that Christians look at the bible from their own perspectives with their own biases and that any concept of a holy spirit guiding them is simply in their mind?

Have Christians unwittingly fallen for a big con job?

Presuming the Holy spirit is real, how can we possibly be expected to believe in it if there is no unity amongst Christians? And how can it be shown to be part of God when demons are so more influential than it?

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:33 pm

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OnceConvinced wrote: Have Christians unwittingly fallen for a big con job?

Yes, in far more ways than just the "holy spirit' (my opinion)

OnceConvinced wrote: Presuming the Holy spirit is real . . .

I cannot, in my most gullible moment, presume that the holy spirit is anything more than the product of human imagination -- so I must leave that part of the discussion to others -- who may have more active imagination.

Divine Insight · Post by **Divine Insight** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:08 pm

OnceConvinced wrote: As a former Christian I can testify to the fact that Christians can never agree. This is why bible study groups are so good, because theres always debate. Theres always differing opinions. Many a time you will hear the words I never thought of it that way before said in a bible study group. Further evidence that no holy spirit is guiding anyone.

I believe that this is a very powerful and true argument. It's crystal clear that there is no "Holy Spirit" guiding anyone. There is no religious leader, clergy, apologist, etc, that stands out as truly being guided by any supreme intelligence. In fact, many of the positions these people hold are clearly anything but intelligent. And that's just the truth. They can't can't even convince each other.

OnceConvinced wrote: Have Christians unwittingly fallen for a big con job?

As far as I'm concerned this is the obvious truth. A truth that many people are simply not prepared to acknowledge.

I think also that it would be extremely difficult for people who have invested a large part of their lives to argue for these religions to actually accept that what they thought was true is clearly nothing more than a con job.

But as far as I can see from the history and doctrines of all the Abrahamic religions that's necessarily the only thing it can be. There simply is no possibility that it has anything to do with any "God" or "Holy Spirit". The religion simply wouldn't be in such dire chaos and self-disagreement if there was any supreme entity behind it.

That's just too obviously true. I don't understand how anyone can remain in denial of this obvious truth.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:09 pm

OnceConvinced wrote:
...

Presuming the Holy spirit is real, how can we possibly be expected to believe in it if there is no unity amongst Christians? And how can it be shown to be part of God when demons are so more influential than it?

Christian unity is not predicted here on earth; we are to work toward it. It means nothing to this question. IF the definition of Christian reality is that all people are here as innocents or sinners and must find GOD or perish, that is, there is a competition between GOD and Satan, then I would have to agree with you, that the effort seems lopsided.

BUT if our Christian definition of reality is that some sinners are here to become holy and some are not and that holiness is only achieved by His (the Holy Spirit's) work in us, then all is going as it should and gives credence to the doctrine that more people rejected GOD outright than first accepted HIM then rejected HIS plan for them, the ol' broad is the way, narrow the gate thing.

This would counter the idea that demons are more powerful, just more prevalent so we see His work less often.

Unity does not bring one to GOD; GOD brings us to unity but certainly not openly. What Christians teach is that what does bring a sinner to GOD is seeking HIM with a repentant heart.

Peace, Ted

Divine Insight · Post by **Divine Insight** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:39 pm

[Replying to post 4 by ttruscott]

The problem with your proposed scenario is that all denominations that disagree with your denomination or version of Christianity are then necessarily refusing to repent.

Otherwise they would be given the correct information by the Holy Spirit.

So you're basically suggesting that only you, and denominations that are in agreement with your philosophy are willing to repent. Everyone else is clearly an evil sinner who is unwilling to repent.

The probability that you just happen to be lucky enough to end up in that situation is astronomically against you.

The bottom line is that your apologetics simply are not even remotely believable.

If you are right, then every Christian who does not agree with your view of Christianity is necessarily a sinner who refuses to repent and this is why they are being led astray.

Every Muslim and Jew is necessarily a sinner who refuses to repent.

Every non-Christian religion or spiritual person is necessarily a sinner who refuses to repent.

Every secular atheist is necessarily a sinner who refuses to repent.

It's just doesn't wash Ted.

It also ends up that this Creator God had created infinitely many more souls who hate him than souls who love him. That would be an extremely inefficient and lame creator of souls don't you think?

If I was a creator of souls who was doing that poorly at creating successful souls, I'd have to stop and ask myself why I continue to create souls when I am clearly extremely inept at doing so.

A God who loses the vast majority of souls that it creates is clearly a loser God. That would just be a fact of statistics if it were true. So you are basically suggesting that our creator is a loser God.

Freddy_Scissorhands · Post by **Freddy_Scissorhands** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:53 pm

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

A "sham" might be the wrong word, because (as far as I understand the word... correct me if I'm wrong, English isn't my first langauge) a sham implies that it is a deliberatly crafted hoax to decieve people.
And even though this might be the case, I consider it much more likely that the idea of the "holy spirit" has, just as all supernatural believes, evolved as a part of honestly held convictions.

I do think that the holy spirit doesn't exist and is a man-made concept, but I don't think that it is a deliberate hoax.

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:52 pm

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Freddy_Scissorhands wrote: I consider it much more likely that the idea of the "holy spirit" has, just as all supernatural believes, evolved as a part of honestly held convictions.

I don't think that it is a deliberate hoax.

I tend to agree that many or most supernatural beliefs probably originate with an honest opinion, testimonial, psychological episode, etc -- and are embellished with subsequent retellings through generations.

Originators of the holy spirit concept might have intended it to apply to the inner quality or nature of God -- not a separate entity

Wordleymaster1 · Post by **Wordleymaster1** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:06 am

I think Christianity is a scam so of course the HS story would be as well. Let 'em believe in whatever - I just don't want to know about it or have it intercept my life.
Want to believe in a risen dead man? Cool
Want to believe in a super ghost? Go for it
Want to believe in magic interpretation of normal things? Awesome
Want to believe in a Magic Mushroom God? Knock yourself out

Want to stick this belief into the head of me or my family directly or not? Absolutely not & you'd be looking for a fight if you did

1213 · Post by **1213** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:46 pm

OnceConvinced wrote: ...
Presuming the Holy spirit is real, how can we possibly be expected to believe in it if there is no unity amongst Christians? And how can it be shown to be part of God when demons are so more influential than it?

But are Christians really disciples of Jesus? I think they usually are not, and therefore the words that are for disciples of Jesus dont fit to them. If people are truly disciples of Jesus, they remain in words of Jesus and I think then they agree, and are one and love others as Jesus commanded.

"If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, just like I have loved you; that you also love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
John 13:34-35

Wordleymaster1 · Post by **Wordleymaster1** » Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:42 am

Zzyzx wrote: .
Freddy_Scissorhands wrote: I consider it much more likely that the idea of the "holy spirit" has, just as all supernatural believes, evolved as a part of honestly held convictions.

I don't think that it is a deliberate hoax.
I tend to agree that many or most supernatural beliefs probably originate with an honest opinion, testimonial, psychological episode, etc -- and are embellished with subsequent retellings through generations.

Originators of the holy spirit concept might have intended it to apply to the inner quality or nature of God -- not a separate entity

Or they could have conceived of it purposefully to push some type of personal or political agenda. Or to just be 'jerks'. Most anything's possible and all we're doing is taking stabs in the dark looking for the 'why'

Debating Christianity and Religion