What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion?

[Justin108]

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?

[1213]

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

But is that really correct understanding, when Jesus himself says according to the Bible:

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 6:63

Truly, truly I tell you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death at all.�
John. 8:51

If we believe Bible Jesus, it is his words that give life.

I have understood that his words are the body and it transmits the spirit that is life. All the natural body-blood-sacrifice speak seem to be just figuratively speaking or parable, if we don’t ignore words that Jesus told.

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Interesting question is, if it is true that God sacrificed Jesus, what does that actually mean? Bible tells that people killed Jesus. They didn’t do that as sacrificing, according to the story. Also the story doesn’t claim that God killed Jesus as sacrifice. The whole idea of Jesus being sacrificed in same sense as animals that were sacrificed is not true if we are faithful to the story.

It seems to me that only way Jesus can be called sacrifice is, because he used his life to rescue us by declaring the message that God had given to him.

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 2 by 1213]

Interesting question is, if it is true that God sacrificed Jesus, what does that actually mean? Bible tells that people killed Jesus. They didn’t do that as sacrificing, according to the story.

I agree. Jesus suffered the capital death sentence suffered by criminals of a certain caliber common in that day and age. Being crucified is a prolonged, gruesome, humiliating public death. The long public torture was meant to be a deterrent to Zealots (roving bands of Jews who attacked Roman outposts) and others that upset the already restless unease of that region under Roman rule.

Also the story doesn’t claim that God killed Jesus as sacrifice. The whole idea of Jesus being sacrificed in same sense as animals that were sacrificed is not true if we are faithful to the story.

What 'story' specifically do you mean? When Jesus was crucified, I seriously doubt at that time it was anything more than the punishment of yet another troublemaker attempting to unsettle the already restless region.

It seems to me that only way Jesus can be called sacrifice is, because he used his life to rescue us by declaring the message that God had given to him.

In EXTREME retrospect, as the earliest recording of the events of Jesus life (and not considered reliable by modern scholars) is twenty years post-crucifixion. That is a terribly long time in our own lives, and back then a person was lucky to live into their fifties in an occupied 'frontier'. Try writing about a terribly important event in your own life twenty years ago, and you (the generic) are going to come up with a narrative whose meaning didn't exist twenty years ago.

That more scholars favor forty to sixty years for the earliest Gospel written post-Crucifixion stretches possible credulity even more.

Jesus' 'sacrifice' can't reliably be shown to be part of the narrative for all the years between the crucifixion and the time of the earliest know Gospel writing. I'm sure at the time those who followed Jesus mourned and raged in disappointment, probably felt totally cheated and discouraged.

The 'sacrifice' and redemption narrative was added in decades after the event. This pattern of building a great, meaningful narrative around a long past event is just something that human beings do routinely.

So it appears to me that the 'logic' behind the cult that grew around the decades-past crucifixion of a wise and heretical Jew is simply a function of narrative embellishment. He drummed up a lot of hope in a time of little hope, and then he was put to death for it. What a shitty ending to that story, that is no way to start a religion!

As for the actual 'redemption' narrative, it's not much different than redemption narratives told all over the world as long as people have told each other stories. "Did God sacrifice Jesus?" is a question that can only be asked OF the narrative, which is not a literal retelling of events but now, a story.

Needing to make a more glorious and meaningful narrative of the capital punishment of Jesus goes without saying. The embellishments followed a very predictable religious algorithm for our favorite bedtime story; salvation and redemption.

[squint]

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I see no need to place borders on mystery. Jesus hanging on a cross can mean many things.

Perhaps one sight, the sight of a dead man, is hung as a warning sign to remind every man of their terminal velocity. Perhaps another sight is as a warning to lawlessness that exists within every man that ultimately results in that fate regardless of the paths we take.

We all find ourselves on the cross in reflections of the great mystery.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

I'm fond of Paul's reasonings.

[The Tanager]

There is a difference (assuming for the sake of the question asked that the event occurred) between Jesus' death accomplishing something for humanity and theories about what all went on. And I understand questions about why God couldn't just say He forgives us, rather than going through some kind of theatrics. But I do think there are certain restraints on how to accomplish forgiveness. Not because God is not powerful enough, but because of the type of people God created...physical creatures. If the 'cure' isn't physical, then it doesn't actually change who we are. And that physical change can be imparted to us because in Jesus human nature was lived perfectly and can now be imparted to us if we want it.

[Peds nurse]

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

But is that really correct understanding, when Jesus himself says according to the Bible:

Interesting question is, if it is true that God sacrificed Jesus, what does that actually mean? Bible tells that people killed Jesus. They didn’t do that as sacrificing, according to the story. Also the story doesn’t claim that God killed Jesus as sacrifice. The whole idea of Jesus being sacrificed in same sense as animals that were sacrificed is not true if we are faithful to the story.

It is true that God sent His Son, knowing full well how it would all play out. Matthew 1:21-She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.

The people who crucified Jesus, didn't intentionally sacrifice Him, because they denied who he was. The entire reason they sacrificed animals in the Old Testament was to atone for sins. Jesus atoned for our sins, so it is comparable, to animal sacrifice.

It seems to me that only way Jesus can be called sacrifice is, because he used his life to rescue us by declaring the message that God had given to him.

He saved us from eternal condemnation.

[Peds nurse]

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

It would be unfair for a man to be punished for something his brother did. The difference with Jesus is that He was the son of God, and he died so that ALL might have life. He died so that we could live. Is is fair? No, probably not. If it were fair, we wouldn't be debating anything right now because we would all be destined to the same fate.

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?

Perhaps we couldn't handle the guilt.

[1213]

What 'story' specifically do you mean?

I mean what the Bible tells about the matter.

The 'sacrifice' and redemption narrative was added in decades after the event.

How do you know it was added later and was not original story?

Needing to make a more glorious and meaningful narrative of the capital punishment of Jesus goes without saying. The embellishments followed a very predictable religious algorithm for our favorite bedtime story; salvation and redemption.

Actually there is no reason to make it more glorious. The Bible story itself is glorious, even without sacrifice talk. Jesus was ready to be faithful to God, even when it meant suffering. And by doing so, he showed great example of fearless faithfulness to God. He showed that we should not fear death. And it seems to be the reason why disciples got the courage to continue and preach the message.

[FinalEnigma]

Problems I see with the story of the sacrifice of Jesus:

1) It was not necessary. If God is omnipotent, he does not have to sacrifice Jesus, or do anything else he doesn't want to.

2) Jesus did not actually take the punishment of a single person, let alone all of them. The punishment for sinning is going to hell for eternity - Jesus did not do this.

3) Was Jesus' death a good thing? or a bad thing? Christians seem very confused about this.

4) One person taking the punishment of another is not just or logical.

5) There is no reason why God would logically create a situation wherein he HAD to sacrifice his son.

6) Jesus supposedly said the only way to heaven was through him. Are the people who were born and died before Jesus just sent to hell with no chance?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 6 by Peds nurse]

He saved us from eternal condemnation.

So who is doing the eternal condemnating?