OK, I know this will be controversial...
Does prayer really work?? A study in the US in 2006 of around 1800 heart patients showed that intercessory prayer had NO effect.
So let's look at the Christian view of prayer. God answers EVERY prayer with yes, no or wait.
So for example, I decide to pray to my mobile phone for a week......
I ask for money to come in, I ask for my son to get a girlfriend and I ask for a red Ferarri.
After the week, I get a refund from my gas provider, the Ferrari doesn't turn up and the week after my son meets a cute girl on Facebook...
Praise be to Samsung for bringing all this to pass....
Christians are taught to focus on the positives and write down the good things they believe God has done. They go out in churches and tell stories of the wonders God has done but they don't testify to all the things that don't happen... So in my case above, I could give testimony that my Samsung phone answered my prayer and gave me money without mentioning that a Ferrari didn't arrive.
It's life.... Good things and bad things happen to people whether they are Christian or Atheist.
Healing is a classic example of the above. Little Johnny is very ill and may not make it so the church all pray and thanks to modern medicine little Johnny makes it through so the church all make testimony of God's healing. The reality if other little Johnny's that haven't been prayed for also make it through and many "little Johnny's" who have been prayed for by devoted Christian's DON'T make it....
The reality is that life happens some will live, some will die. Christians will say those that live are down to God's healing and those that die God wanted to take home. Non Christians see the reality that hospital staff battle away to save lives but tragically not all can be saved....
Does prayer work?
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Faithful One
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Re: Does prayer work?
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by psychdave]
Number one God did not promise any of us a " Rose garden " here on earth . Number two, one must be in Gods favor to have prayers answered and heard.
Ones with Gods favor will receive it , those that do not have it will not. That simple.
God has sovereignty over all things that happen on the earth , according to the bible.
I highly doubt God intervenes on things that were already meant to be. God would intervene into ones life that have his favor, in a positive manner you are either chosen to have this favor , or you are not.
Prayer is an opportunity to communicate with God, either in groups or in private. Prayer is an opportunity to show God your concern for others, prayer is a chance for you to relay to God how you feel about him. Prayer is an outlet for hope.
Pray for increase , put the work in, with the power of prayer, should you have gods favor , you will receive increase, should you pray for a red Ferrari, God could show you the way to that car in different ways in your life , should you be sincere in your faith , you might realize this through prayer and due diligence , although prayer was not really designed to give you your wants , but to communicate with a God.
I would say , it never hurts to ask. 😉
My personal experience is that I recieve even the most mundane things I ask the lord for , everywhere I go. Remember also, God will only help those that help themselves , and I don't mean help themselves to another serving of mash potaters.
I have no doubt I have Gods favor.
With one thought god could turn a car away meant to crash into you, with one thought God could give you the opportunity for increase , that you have asked for. There is also the fact that one is lucky to have gods favor.
I define luck as when opportunity meets skill , God grants us the opportunity, we must have the skill, knowledge and faith to do something with that opportunity.
Pray for what you need, work for what you want.
Number one God did not promise any of us a " Rose garden " here on earth . Number two, one must be in Gods favor to have prayers answered and heard.
Ones with Gods favor will receive it , those that do not have it will not. That simple.
God has sovereignty over all things that happen on the earth , according to the bible.
I highly doubt God intervenes on things that were already meant to be. God would intervene into ones life that have his favor, in a positive manner you are either chosen to have this favor , or you are not.
Prayer is an opportunity to communicate with God, either in groups or in private. Prayer is an opportunity to show God your concern for others, prayer is a chance for you to relay to God how you feel about him. Prayer is an outlet for hope.
Pray for increase , put the work in, with the power of prayer, should you have gods favor , you will receive increase, should you pray for a red Ferrari, God could show you the way to that car in different ways in your life , should you be sincere in your faith , you might realize this through prayer and due diligence , although prayer was not really designed to give you your wants , but to communicate with a God.
I would say , it never hurts to ask. 😉
My personal experience is that I recieve even the most mundane things I ask the lord for , everywhere I go. Remember also, God will only help those that help themselves , and I don't mean help themselves to another serving of mash potaters.
I have no doubt I have Gods favor.
Hezekiah surely had gods favor , according to the bible. This would be a rare event of divine intervention .2 Kings 192 Kings 22
2 Kings 20:1-21:9New International Version (NIV)
Hezekiah’s Illness
20 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, “This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover.�
2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, 3 “Remember, Lord, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes.� And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him: 5 “Go back and tell Hezekiah, the ruler of my people, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the Lord. 6 I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.’�
7 Then Isaiah said, “Prepare a poultice of figs.� They did so and applied it to the boil, and he recovered.
With one thought god could turn a car away meant to crash into you, with one thought God could give you the opportunity for increase , that you have asked for. There is also the fact that one is lucky to have gods favor.
I define luck as when opportunity meets skill , God grants us the opportunity, we must have the skill, knowledge and faith to do something with that opportunity.
Pray for what you need, work for what you want.
Re: Does prayer work?
Post #3[Replying to Faithful One]
Thanks for your reply faithful on. A couple of comments. I was a Christian for around 30 years until a few years back when I studied my diploma in Psychology.
Many of those years were in a Pentecostal church.
I know of several pastors/leaders that prayed for people and people did claim to be healed/situations resolved/courage given etc... Given that these pastors/leaders were later found to have been living a double life and were committing adultery in the background, they clearly were NOT in God's favour...
I also want to refer to my earlier comment regarding prayer for healing. If a small child is very sick and the elders of the church gather round, the bible states pray and they will be healed (James 5:14). John 14:13 ask anything in my name.... So given that, how is it that studies have found no real difference between people prayed for and people not prayed for and the likeliness of the person living/dying is purely down to fate/skill of the doctors nurses.
As a Psychologist, I can only put the power of prayer for the sick down to placebo, in the same way that somebody given a blue sugar pill for anxiety and truly believes that this "miracle cure" has made them better. The mind is a very powerful tool and research has proved that tackling an illness with a positive mindset means a greater chance of surviving longer than having a very negative attitude.
Whilst I do not class myself a Christian anymore, I would consider myself a Deist, i.e. I believe there is a God who created the earth and is a supreme power, but I do not believe he gets involved in day to day issues. Good and bad things just happen.
Thanks for your reply faithful on. A couple of comments. I was a Christian for around 30 years until a few years back when I studied my diploma in Psychology.
Many of those years were in a Pentecostal church.
I know of several pastors/leaders that prayed for people and people did claim to be healed/situations resolved/courage given etc... Given that these pastors/leaders were later found to have been living a double life and were committing adultery in the background, they clearly were NOT in God's favour...
I also want to refer to my earlier comment regarding prayer for healing. If a small child is very sick and the elders of the church gather round, the bible states pray and they will be healed (James 5:14). John 14:13 ask anything in my name.... So given that, how is it that studies have found no real difference between people prayed for and people not prayed for and the likeliness of the person living/dying is purely down to fate/skill of the doctors nurses.
As a Psychologist, I can only put the power of prayer for the sick down to placebo, in the same way that somebody given a blue sugar pill for anxiety and truly believes that this "miracle cure" has made them better. The mind is a very powerful tool and research has proved that tackling an illness with a positive mindset means a greater chance of surviving longer than having a very negative attitude.
Whilst I do not class myself a Christian anymore, I would consider myself a Deist, i.e. I believe there is a God who created the earth and is a supreme power, but I do not believe he gets involved in day to day issues. Good and bad things just happen.
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Bust Nak
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Re: Does prayer work?
Post #4[Replying to post 1 by psychdave]
Depends on what you mean by "work." Prayer work in the sense that it gives Christians comfort.
Depends on what you mean by "work." Prayer work in the sense that it gives Christians comfort.
Re: Does prayer work?
Post #5[Replying to post 4 by Bust Nak]
From a psychological point of view, absolutely. Relying on a higher entity allows Christians to put some responsibility for their lives in the hands of God. For example, "I didn't get the job because God didn't want me to have it" when the reality may have been - You interviewed very badly.... Or "I'm waiting for God's guidance on sorting out my finances/relationship etc" when in reality you need to just stop using the "God card" as an excuse to procrastinate and get on with sorting things out ....
Seen it used time and time again when I used to be a Christian.... Even church leaders "we're praying about the situation", instead of getting on and actually tackling the situation....
From a psychological point of view, absolutely. Relying on a higher entity allows Christians to put some responsibility for their lives in the hands of God. For example, "I didn't get the job because God didn't want me to have it" when the reality may have been - You interviewed very badly.... Or "I'm waiting for God's guidance on sorting out my finances/relationship etc" when in reality you need to just stop using the "God card" as an excuse to procrastinate and get on with sorting things out ....
Seen it used time and time again when I used to be a Christian.... Even church leaders "we're praying about the situation", instead of getting on and actually tackling the situation....
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Kenisaw
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Post #6
If we are all loved unconditionally, why do we need to be "in favor"?Ones with Gods favor will receive it , those that do not have it will not. That simple.
If god is all knowing, then everything already is "meant to be". It can't change and has to happen that way.I highly doubt God intervenes on things that were already meant to be.
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Clownboat
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Re: Does prayer work?
Post #7As you alluded to, prayer has already been shown to be seemingly ineffective.psychdave wrote: OK, I know this will be controversial...
Does prayer really work?? A study in the US in 2006 of around 1800 heart patients showed that intercessory prayer had NO effect.
So let's look at the Christian view of prayer. God answers EVERY prayer with yes, no or wait.
So for example, I decide to pray to my mobile phone for a week......
I ask for money to come in, I ask for my son to get a girlfriend and I ask for a red Ferarri.
After the week, I get a refund from my gas provider, the Ferrari doesn't turn up and the week after my son meets a cute girl on Facebook...
Praise be to Samsung for bringing all this to pass....
Christians are taught to focus on the positives and write down the good things they believe God has done. They go out in churches and tell stories of the wonders God has done but they don't testify to all the things that don't happen... So in my case above, I could give testimony that my Samsung phone answered my prayer and gave me money without mentioning that a Ferrari didn't arrive.
It's life.... Good things and bad things happen to people whether they are Christian or Atheist.
Healing is a classic example of the above. Little Johnny is very ill and may not make it so the church all pray and thanks to modern medicine little Johnny makes it through so the church all make testimony of God's healing. The reality if other little Johnny's that haven't been prayed for also make it through and many "little Johnny's" who have been prayed for by devoted Christian's DON'T make it....
The reality is that life happens some will live, some will die. Christians will say those that live are down to God's healing and those that die God wanted to take home. Non Christians see the reality that hospital staff battle away to save lives but tragically not all can be saved....
However, it does work. Let me explain.
What if you knew someone that was going through a tough time. You could tell them that you will pray for them. Basically, you can feel like you are doing something help, without actually doing anything to help.
Prayer works if the goal is to feel like you did something to help someone without actually doing anything. Basically, prayer is a mechanism to help yourself. The person being prayed for seems to be unaffected.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Zzyzx
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Re: Does prayer work?
Post #8.
Is the objective to feel good regardless of a lack of actual benefit?
Can we summarize that by saying that prayer may give people psychological comfort? Those who do the praying feel as though they are helping (even though they do nothing else) and the person prayed for may fell as though they benefit (even if the prayers have no actual effect).Clownboat wrote: What if you knew someone that was going through a tough time. You could tell them that you will pray for them. Basically, you can feel like you are doing something help, without actually doing anything to help.
Prayer works if the goal is to feel like you did something to help someone without actually doing anything. Basically, prayer is a mechanism to help yourself. The person being prayed for seems to be unaffected.
Is the objective to feel good regardless of a lack of actual benefit?
.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Faithful One
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Post #9
[Replying to post 6 by Kenisaw]
Being in gods favor means increasing your faith in him. We are are all considered Gidd children, according to the bible, but children go astray , those that are not increasing their faith , are going astray , they will lose Gods favor , regardless of the unconditional love that is offered by God.
The "unconditional" part comes into relevance , in the sense that you could never be worthy of heaven on your own, but can still get there by the grace of God. Should you accept this message , then you will recieve unconditional love from God. The opportunity is forever there , this does not go away. There are no conditions under which you would never be allowed to recieve it, if you so choose to recieve it, if you are sincere in recieving it.
Should you choose not to recieve and believe , then you will surely not fall into Gods favor. The choice is yours to make, not Gods. According to the bible.
There is nothing that "has to happen" in anyway , as far as the one one who made the plan goes. God has sovereignty over all of the happenings of the world . Those that are not believers might not be affected by this sovereignty , falling out of the plan of salvation , thus left to the world to decide their fate , to them that fate is ambiguous , they have no idea of what it will be, those who are in the faith, know what their ultimate fate will be , falling under gods sovereignty. The lord will concern himself with them and their fate , which is known. i.e
God knows what he wishes to know , God controls those that fall under his sovereignty. God knows the ones that will fall under his sovereignty , they also have the choice to choose right or wrong. Once this path is chosen , then your fate is chosen.
God can surely intervene, as I have given example above. Does this mean he will intervene? That I could never answer . Do I believe that he often intervenes with what is "meant to be "? Like I said , I highly doubt it , but it is possible , as I have shown above, Hezekiah was in Gods favor, thus granted what he prayed for.
Quote:
Ones with Gods favor will receive it , those that do not have it will not. That simple.
If we are all loved unconditionally, why do we need to be "in favor"?
Being in gods favor means increasing your faith in him. We are are all considered Gidd children, according to the bible, but children go astray , those that are not increasing their faith , are going astray , they will lose Gods favor , regardless of the unconditional love that is offered by God.
The "unconditional" part comes into relevance , in the sense that you could never be worthy of heaven on your own, but can still get there by the grace of God. Should you accept this message , then you will recieve unconditional love from God. The opportunity is forever there , this does not go away. There are no conditions under which you would never be allowed to recieve it, if you so choose to recieve it, if you are sincere in recieving it.
Should you choose not to recieve and believe , then you will surely not fall into Gods favor. The choice is yours to make, not Gods. According to the bible.
My point here is that divine intervention is a rarity , not an impossibility. God can intervene where he wishes , which is why I gave the Hezekiah example ,he was destined to die, God put this off for fifteen years, according to the story.Quote:
I highly doubt God intervenes on things that were already meant to be.
If god is all knowing, then everything already is "meant to be". It can't change and has to happen that way.
There is nothing that "has to happen" in anyway , as far as the one one who made the plan goes. God has sovereignty over all of the happenings of the world . Those that are not believers might not be affected by this sovereignty , falling out of the plan of salvation , thus left to the world to decide their fate , to them that fate is ambiguous , they have no idea of what it will be, those who are in the faith, know what their ultimate fate will be , falling under gods sovereignty. The lord will concern himself with them and their fate , which is known. i.e
God knows what he wishes to know , God controls those that fall under his sovereignty. God knows the ones that will fall under his sovereignty , they also have the choice to choose right or wrong. Once this path is chosen , then your fate is chosen.
God can surely intervene, as I have given example above. Does this mean he will intervene? That I could never answer . Do I believe that he often intervenes with what is "meant to be "? Like I said , I highly doubt it , but it is possible , as I have shown above, Hezekiah was in Gods favor, thus granted what he prayed for.
Last edited by Faithful One on Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Does prayer work?
Post #10[Replying to post 7 by Clownboat]
I totally agree. The only thing I would add is that if the person being prayed for genuinely believes that the prayer will work they may have a more positive outlook in combating the illness in the same way as they might if they were given a "magic" blue placebo pill that they are told will help them get better quicker.
I totally agree. The only thing I would add is that if the person being prayed for genuinely believes that the prayer will work they may have a more positive outlook in combating the illness in the same way as they might if they were given a "magic" blue placebo pill that they are told will help them get better quicker.
