The Empty Tomb story wasn't generally known until c.150 AD

[Iasion]

Greetings,

I haven't been around here much for years, thought I'd pop in and re-connect.
(I am bible sceptic who especially likes to debate the history of early Christianity.)

So I'd like to talk about the Christian story of the Empty Tomb.
In particular - when the Empty Tomb story became widely known to Christians.


The first century or so (after the traditional date of the crucifixion)
Here is a chronological list by decade of the early Christian writings :

<50s> No empty tomb
Paul

<60s> No empty tomb
Hebrews

<80s> No empty tomb
Colossians; 1 John; James

<90s> No empty tomb
Ephesians; 2 Thess.; 1 Peter; 1 Clement; Revelation

<100s> No empty tomb
The Didakhe; Jude

<110s> No empty tomb
Barnabas

<120s> No empty tomb
2 John; 3 John; G.Thomas

<130s> No empty tomb
Papias; 2 Peter; The Pastorals

<140s> No empty tomb
to Diognetus; Ep.Apostles; 2 Clement; Aristides

There is no mention of the Empty Tomb story before about 150 AD.


What about Paul ?
Yes, Paul refers to Christ being 'buried' and then 'raised'.
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"
No mention of a tomb. Certainly no mention of an Empty Tomb story.

What about the Gospels ?
Yes, the gospels mention the Empty Tomb story and were probably written between about 70-110 - but they did not become widely known until much later.
If we look at the Christian writings chronologically - we see exactly the same pattern : the gospels, and their contents, were not widely known to Christians until the same period - mid 2nd century.


Justin Martyr around 150 AD was the first
The first mention of the Empty Tomb story is by Justin Martyr around 150 AD.
Justin is also the first to clearly quote from anything like gospels - which he also calls 'memoirs of the apostles'. But Justin does not say how many gospels, nor does he give any author's names, nor are his quotes exactly the same as modern gospels.
All his stories come FROM these un-named and un-numbered gospels.


Conclusion
Even though the Empty Tomb story is an important element of Christian beliefs, there is no evidence that the earliest Christians in general even knew of the story.
The earliest evidence for the Empty Tomb story, outside the gospels, is no earlier than c.150 AD - a century and more after the alleged event.
The gospels were probably written earlier, but they also did not become widely available to Christians until c.150 AD.


Iasion

[oldbadger]

Good thread...

There are many problems surrounding Jesus's arrest, trial, execution and burial, and the 12 hour+ gap between leaving the tomb and returning spills all theories into speculation. It'll just have to be a faith thing for Christians, I think.

According to the Gospels there were two Jesus's (Yeshuas) who either demonstrated-picketed or caused riot and death that week in Jerusalem.
One was called 'son-of-man' and the other 'son-of-the-father'.
Both were arrested, tried, convicted and condemned to death, but one was pardoned and the other executed.

Both were probably Galileans, and one of them appeared soon after this in Galilee.

The other prob is that Pilate was unhappy about the people's wish to kill the one, and since he ordered that the condemned be taken down after only a few hours, I wonder if he really did die.

There is another record of three convicts (in another event) being pardoned after they had been hung up on crosses for some time. One of these lived and the others died, so it is possible to crucify someone until apparently dead and then take them down. There would not have been many watchers at the end because of the dreadful weather.

The fact that so many Indians believe that Jesus died in Kashmir cannot be laughed away, either.

[Willum]

I don't think you should let it bother you:
The majority of Christians on this site contest Paul and Romans right and left.
So if Paul is the only one decrying resurrection I am pretty sure they'll all abandon him before the cock crows thrice, if it goes against common understanding.

[Ancient of Years]

Greetings,

I haven't been around here much for years, thought I'd pop in and re-connect.
(I am bible sceptic who especially likes to debate the history of early Christianity.)

So I'd like to talk about the Christian story of the Empty Tomb.
In particular - when the Empty Tomb story became widely known to Christians.


The first century or so (after the traditional date of the crucifixion)
Here is a chronological list by decade of the early Christian writings :

<50s> No empty tomb
Paul

<60s> No empty tomb
Hebrews

<80s> No empty tomb
Colossians; 1 John; James

<90s> No empty tomb
Ephesians; 2 Thess.; 1 Peter; 1 Clement; Revelation

<100s> No empty tomb
The Didakhe; Jude

<110s> No empty tomb
Barnabas

<120s> No empty tomb
2 John; 3 John; G.Thomas

<130s> No empty tomb
Papias; 2 Peter; The Pastorals

<140s> No empty tomb
to Diognetus; Ep.Apostles; 2 Clement; Aristides

There is no mention of the Empty Tomb story before about 150 AD.


What about Paul ?
Yes, Paul refers to Christ being 'buried' and then 'raised'.
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures"
No mention of a tomb. Certainly no mention of an Empty Tomb story.

What about the Gospels ?
Yes, the gospels mention the Empty Tomb story and were probably written between about 70-110 - but they did not become widely known until much later.
If we look at the Christian writings chronologically - we see exactly the same pattern : the gospels, and their contents, were not widely known to Christians until the same period - mid 2nd century.


Justin Martyr around 150 AD was the first
The first mention of the Empty Tomb story is by Justin Martyr around 150 AD.
Justin is also the first to clearly quote from anything like gospels - which he also calls 'memoirs of the apostles'. But Justin does not say how many gospels, nor does he give any author's names, nor are his quotes exactly the same as modern gospels.
All his stories come FROM these un-named and un-numbered gospels.


Conclusion
Even though the Empty Tomb story is an important element of Christian beliefs, there is no evidence that the earliest Christians in general even knew of the story.
The earliest evidence for the Empty Tomb story, outside the gospels, is no earlier than c.150 AD - a century and more after the alleged event.
The gospels were probably written earlier, but they also did not become widely available to Christians until c.150 AD.


Iasion

What exactly is your point here? The story was not widely known? Even if that were the case, so what? It is not the Empty Tomb story that is the basis of faith, but the Resurrection meme. The Empty Tomb story is the suspicious part.

Also, on what evidence do you base your statement that the Gospels were not widely known until after 150 AD?

[polonius]

[Replying to Iasion]

Actually, the empty tomb story first appears in Mark's gospel written about 70 AD and had a longer ending was added in th second century.

Actually, neither Paul nor Mark said anything about the Ascension. This was a later addition to the Resurrection story. The Ascension was said to have happened on the evening of the Resurrection (Luke) or 40 days later (Acts). Take your pick.

[tfvespasianus]

Also, on what evidence do you base your statement that the Gospels were not widely known until after 150 AD?

It is a sensible question to ask as the scholarly consensus on dating the gospels is just that – a proposed date range built upon a series of assumptions and inferences. What is being posited here is one stake in a relative dating method – the terminus ante quem. Briefly, the first reliably dated reference to an event marks the latest point at which that thing could be said to be in existence. The tricky part is establishing the other pole – the terminus post quem (i.e. the earliest a given thing/event could be said to have transpired/existed). As for many features of the gospels (i.e. the nativity, the empty tomb, etc.) many of them are not mentioned by our earliest sources. I freely concede that to say they weren’t known prior to their first explicit reference would be an argument based upon silence and thus shaky. The point remains that in several cases one terminus in relative dating is surprisingly late. To me, this should give some pause when we assess the dating of features of the gospels and, to some extent, the gospels themselves.

Take care,
TFV

[JLB32168]

The first mention of the Empty Tomb story is by Justin Martyr around 150 AD.

John’s Gospel John is usually dated to 90-110 AD/CE which is from six to four decades before your date and it contains mention of Christ’s empty tomb, placing it much closer to the date when it is alleged to have happened. Paul speaks repeatedly about Christ’s Resurrection and of all the dead being resurrected in body. His earliest letters (whose authorship is undisputed by most scholars) date from only two decades after the event would have happened.

If Paul mentioned Jesus’ Resurrection over and over and also mentions the resurrection of believer in body then it is reasonable to assume that he uses the term anastasis (resurrection in Greek) in the same fashion with both Christ and believers. It would be superfluous of Paul to mention an empty tomb since clearly a dead body occupies one before it comes back to life and walks out of it.

[polonius]

[Replying to JLB32168]


Jlb posted (post 7)
>>John’s Gospel John is usually dated to 90-110 AD/CE which is from six to four decades before your date and it contains mention of Christ’s empty tomb, placing it much closer to the date when it is alleged to have happened. Paul speaks repeatedly about Christ’s Resurrection and of all the dead being resurrected in body. His earliest letters (whose authorship is undisputed by most scholars) date from only two decades after the event would have happened.

>>If Paul mentioned Jesus’ Resurrection over and over and also mentions the resurrection of believer in body then it is reasonable to assume that he uses the term anastasis (resurrection in Greek) in the same fashion with both Christ and believers. It would be superfluous of Paul to mention an empty tomb since clearly a dead body occupies one before it comes back to life and walks out of it.<<

RESPONSE:

1 Cor 15:3-8 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures,4and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, 5and that he appeared* to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6Then he appeared* to more than five hundred brothers and sisters* at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.* 7Then he appeared* to James, then to all the apostles. 8Last of all, as to someone untimely born, he appeared* also to me….

Appeared* “Ophthe� Strong’s Lexicon 3708. horao hor-ah'-o properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear:--behold, perceive, see, take heed.

Continuing with Paul’s 1 Corinthians 15: New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. …. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is[a] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven….

Jlb claimed that:

>>If Paul mentioned Jesus’ Resurrection over and over and also mentions the resurrection of believer in body <<

RESPONSE:

Actually, Paul doesn’t. What is your evidence that the appearances of Christ in 1 Cor 15 are not spiritual appearances rather than bodily, and that Paul taught a bodily resurrection?

[JLB32168]

Actually, Paul doesn’t. What is your evidence that the appearances of Christ in 1 Cor 15 are not spiritual appearances rather than bodily, and that Paul taught a bodily resurrection?

Paul mentions Jesus’ Resurrection over and over w/o specifically saying it was physical and/or spiritual – this is correct; however, Paul admits that he was a Pharisee and the Pharisees believed in a bodily resurrection. Paul also said, “If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised the Messiah from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit who dwells in you.� The mortal body is the physical body; furthermore, he mentions this just after speaking about Jesus being raised from the dead. I suppose one can argue that the mortal body is only taking about us but it seems highly unlikely (and I’m being charitable) that Paul would talk about Jesus being raised from the dead spiritually but then apply that belief to how our physical bodies will be quickened. Since that is the case, it is only reasonable to conclude that being raised from the dead is used the same way – a corpse being miraculously reanimated and if that is the case for Paul to mention the empty tomb would be superfluous since bodies have tombs and they’re empty if their contents get up and leave them.

[1213]

...
Even though the Empty Tomb story is an important element of Christian beliefs, there is no evidence that the earliest Christians in general even knew of the story.
The earliest evidence for the Empty Tomb story, outside the gospels, is no earlier than c.150 AD - a century and more after the alleged event.
The gospels were probably written earlier, but they also did not become widely available to Christians until c.150 AD.


Iasion

I would like to know, do you believe Christians were persecuted 0-300 AD?

What do you think happens to people and their scriptures when they are persecuted?