Biblical Mistakes

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anontheist
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Biblical Mistakes

Post #1

Post by anontheist »

Biblical Mistakes

There are mistakes in the Bible. There are also answers to some of these mistakes. But a question remains, are the answers given good answers or not. Or are they simply attempts to justify or rationalize the problem so we can continue to believe the Bible is the "Word of God" and not simply of human origin?

Many Christians are quick to point out the problems and mistakes with the Book of Mormon or with the Qur'an, but the same critical reasoning and judgment do not seem to apply when it comes to the Bible.

1. It has been suggested by some people that the original manuscripts, the autographs, were, inerrant. But we do not have the original manuscripts. All we have are copies of copies of copies, (etc.) and all of the manuscripts we do posses contain mistakes. So, it would be an assumption without any justification to suggest that the autographs were without mistakes. (Just a note: no two manuscripts are the same, i. e. identical.)

2. One of the most common answers to the problems is that it must have been copyists' error. Meaning that during the copying process of the manuscripts; human error would tend to creep in. Now there are a couple of points to make about this response. 1. There is still an unjustified assumption that the original documents did not have any mistakes; for which there is no evidence for this claim. It is simply an assumption with no justification. 2. There are still errors. Even if it is a "copyists'" error it is still an error. (Note: "Error" and "mistake" are synonymous; they mean the same thing.)

3. It has also been suggested that perhaps the problem is that the verses are being taken out of context. I would suggest before we accept this claim, we look at the context for ourselves and determine if such a problem really exists or if it is just a means of diverting the issue.

4. Sometimes it seems that no matter what kind of answer is provided for a Biblical mistake those who wish to hold to the belief that the Bible cannot be mistaken will simply accept any answer. But, just because an answer has been provided does not mean that it is a good one or that we should accept it. We must look at what appears to be a mistake itself and determine whether this is one or not. And whether the answer given really does solve the problem.

The most obvious question is, if there are mistakes; aside from the ones we find, how many mistakes are there that we are simply not aware of?

Apologists' tend to suggest that there are really no mistakes, but if there are mistakes they can easily be reconciled. It is easy to accept either of these points if you want to maintain your belief that the Bible is the "Word of God." (Note: But you cannot accept both of these claims at the same time that would be a contradiction.)

2 Kings 24:8
Near the end of Chapter 23 it deals with Jehoahaz, Jehoiakim and Chapter 24, verse 8 talks about Jehoiachin. Verse 8 starts with, "Jehoiachin was eighteen (18) years old when he began to reign; he reigned three months in Jerusalem..." verse 9, "He did what was evil in the sight of the Lord;..." (NRSV)


2 Chron. 36:9
Now Chapter 36 is about the reign of the same last kings of Israel. This includes Jehoahaz, Jehoiakim, and Jehoiachin. What is interesting is Jehoiachin is said to be eight (8) years old when he began his reign; (verse 9) he reigned three (3) months and ten (10) days in Jerusalem. He did what was evil in the sight of the LORD. So he lost his kingship.

How old was he? The Bible, and specifically 2 Chronicles says he was 8; 2 Kings 24:8 says he was 18. Either way, both 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles cannot be true. One cannot be 8 and 18 at the same time in the same place. So, you have a choice. Either 2 Chron. is mistaken or 2 Kings is mistaken or perhaps they are both wrong, we do not know, but logically they cannot both be true, though they can both be false. So, either way the Bible is mistaken.

Perhaps it is a copyist error. But if one looks up "error" in a dictionary one finds that one of the definitions will include the synonymous term "mistake." So, it is a copyist mistake, a copyist of the Bible. Therefore, the Bible has mistakes.

One of the things I have noticed, is that when people are shown these mistakes, they tend to want to put words into the Bible that are simply not there. In other words, they do not want to read it literally at this point.

Another thing I have noticed; some translations change some of the verses so there are no longer mistakes. But as far as I understand these changes are without merit. They cannot say that these changes are justified by any of the existing manuscripts.

Let us just look at a couple more.

I think this is an interesting question; does God change his mind?

Num. 23:19
God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal, that he should change his mind
1 Sam. 15:29
Moreover the Glory of Israel will not recant or change his mind; for he is not a mortal, that he should change his mind.


So, this seems clear. God being who he is, does not change his mind. So, I wonder what the following verses mean? Ex. 34:14
And the LORD changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.
Or how about 1 Sam. 15:11
I regret that I made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me, and has not carried out my commands."


Well, this last one is more of a change of heart rather then a change of mind. But does God change his mind? If not what do these verses mean? We want to be sure not impose our preconceived beliefs onto the Bible because we may be wrong.

Perhaps God is speaking in terms humans can understand. But this idea would lead to some other problems. What exactly would it be that we would be unable to understand? If we can answer this question, then we can understand and it is not about God trying to speak metaphorically.

But why assume that the problem is with our understanding and that God could not have changed his mind? Or that perhaps human beings wrote this not understanding themselves what the implications would be if they did.

2 Sam. 24:18-25 says that David paid 50 shekels of silver to Araunah for his threshing floor and oxen. This is a very specific amount, seems clear. But 1 Chron. 21:22-26 says, that David paid 600 shekels of gold to Ornan for the same threshing floor alone. We can look at what was going on before and after and find that this is the same story. Different people are simply telling it at different times with different agendas.

For example, 2 Sam. 24:9, says that Israel had 300,000 more men then Judah. But 1 Chron. 21:5, says that Israel had 630,000 more men. As we can see, it cannot be both numbers. It must be one or the other or neither. Perhaps something in between.

There are so many more that have not been mentioned. Now again, there are "answers" to these problems. But simply coming up with an answer does not always resolve the issue. You still have a mistake. Plus, one can ask, "Does the answer make any sense?" Or is it simply a means to maintain a belief? In other words are we trying to find an answer to an obvious mistake no matter how unreasonable?

These are the mistakes that we have found. But what about all of the mistakes we have not found or are unaware of? How many are there? And how do we know what is a mistake and what is not?

Now even though we know that most of the books of the Bible were written anonymously; that we do not have any of the original documents of any of the books of the Bible; that it was written in an ancient dead language and translating can be rather hard and at times leads to conflict; even though none of the manuscripts we have are identical; and that the Bible's development (how the books were brought together) would tend to undermine its reliability; and that in early church history anything critical of Christianity was sought out and destroyed (and that the church was not always honest), people still choose to believe it is the "Word of God."

So, is the Bible the "Word of God" or is it simply of human origin? The Bible has mistakes because it is simply written by people.

anon
I only want to believe what is true.

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Joe Blackbird
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Re: Biblical Mistakes

Post #2

Post by Joe Blackbird »

anontheist wrote:
So, is the Bible the "Word of God" or is it simply of human origin? The Bible has mistakes because it is simply written by people.

anon
Very well reasoned argument anontheist. All books are made by human beings, there is absolutely no proof that any book is not. Of course the Bible has mistakes, as do all books, especially those of such antiquity. That is not to say it is worthless, by any stretch of the imagination- it is just not perfect, or in my opinion- divine.



Some more questions-

Does God want some to go to hell?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.


How long does God's anger last?

Jeremiah 3:12
I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger for ever.

Micah 7:18
He retaineth not his anger forever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Jeremiah 17:4
Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn for ever.

Malachi 1:4
The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.


Does the blood of animal sacrifices take away sin?

Numbers 15:27-28
And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Will those who call on the name of the Lord be saved?

Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13
Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Micah 3:4
Then shall they cry unto the Lord, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time.

Matthew 7:21
Not every on that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Does God cause confusion?

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion....

1 Corinthians 1:27
God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.


What is(/are) the sin(s) of David?

1 Kings 15:5
David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

2 Samuel 24:10
And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I have sinned greatly in that I have done.


Is the Devil free to roam?

Jude 6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.


What are we permitted to eat?

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. -- Genesis 1:29

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you. -- Genesis 9:3

These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth. Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat. Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. -- Leviticus 11:2-4

And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. -- Mark 7:18-20


Was John the Baptist Elijah?

Matthew 17:12-13
But I say unto you, That Elias [Elijah] is come already.... then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

John 1:21
And they asked him [John the Baptist], What then? Art thou Elias [Elijah]? And he saith, I am not.


How should our enemies be treated?

Proverbs 25:21
If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:

Matthew 5:44
Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

Psalm 55:15
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell.

Psalm 58:6-7
Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth.... Let them be as cut in pieces.


Is God the creator of evil?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

1 John 4:8
God is love.


How should Christians interpret the Law?

Romans 3:20
By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.

Romans 3:28
A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 3:11-12
The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith.

Luke 10:26-28
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Matthew 19:17
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.


Are we justified by faith or works/deeds?

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6, 13
Who will render to each one according to his deeds. ... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Psalm 62:12
For you render to each one according to his works.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.


etc... etc... etc... etc...

Easyrider

Re: Biblical Mistakes

Post #3

Post by Easyrider »

Joe Blackbird wrote:
Are we justified by faith or works/deeds?
Hi Joe, you've presented a number of issues, all of which could be explained without having to allude to them as Biblical mistakes. Let's take a look at your "justification" argument for a moment:

JUSTIFICATION

Justification: "1: the act, process, or state of being justified by God; 2. the act or an instance of justifying." (Webster 628)

Justification: "To justify or make just, by which sanctification is included under justification; to set right; correct a wrong thing done; to deem right or approve. Justification is, in Pauline language, synonymous with reconciliation. God is not imputing to men their trespasses, but declaring them righteous. The means (of justification) is the vicarious expiatory death of Jesus Christ. The sole condition is faith ... in Jesus Christ." (Hastings 510)

Justification: "To prove or show to be just; to vindicate as right; to declare free from guilt or blame; to absolve, to clear; to pardon or clear from guilt; to acquit; declare righteous; pronounce sentence of acceptance." (Conner 269) Conner goes on to quote J.R. Gregory ("The Theological Student"), who defines justification as, 'That act of God by which He accepts as righteous the penitent sinner who believes on Christ for salvation."

Author Kevin Conner explains it this way:

"When Adam sinned, all that he was and all that he did was 'imputed' to the whole, unborn human race. Sin left a debit on the books (Genesis 3:1-16; 2:17; Romans 5:12; 6:23). In Adam all sinned, and all died, spiritually and physically (I Corinthians 15:22). When Christ died on Calvary, the sin of Adam and the whole human race was 'imputed,' or put to Christs' account. And because God imputed our sin to Christ, He suffered our penalty, which was death. All our liabilities were transferred to Him....(and) Christ's righteousness was 'imputed' to us. His righteousness is credited to us, put to our account (Psalm 32:8; Romans 4:8). Justification pronounces the sinner legally innocent, freeing him from condemnation." (Conner 272)

Romans chapters 3-4 contain the magnificent statements of justification for those who place their faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 3:21-22 states:

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from (observing) the
law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets
testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in
Jesus Christ to all who believe."

A few sentences later, Paul declares, "For we maintain that a man is justified (righteous in the eyes of God) by faith apart from observing the law." (Romans 3:28)

In Systematic Theology, Wayne Grudem makes the point that, "the word 'justify' in the Bible indicates that justification is a legal declaration by God. Paul says, "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; who is to condemn?" (Romans 8:33-34). Grudem continues, "In God's legal declaration of justification, He specifically declares that we are just in His sight. This (legal) declaration involves two aspects. First, it means that we have no penalty to pay for sin, including past, present, and future sins. The second part of justification is that God must declare us not to be merely natural in His sight but actually to be righteous in His sight. In fact, He must declare us to have the merits of perfect righteousness before Him." (Grudem 724-25)

In Old and even in some New Testament times, man considered his salvation as being inexorably linked to his 'keeping' of the law. To the degree that he kept the Lord's rules and regulations, that was the degree to which he calculated his chances of salvation. Yet the keeping of the law was and is an exercise in futility. In Galatians 3:10-11, Paul addresses this contentious issue:

"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is
written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do every-
thing written in the Book of the Law.' Clearly, no one is justified
before God by the law, because, 'The righteous will live by
faith."

The law was powerless to justify anyone righteous in the eyes of God for the simple reason that no mortal human was able to keep the law.

"There is no one righteous, not even one...no one who seeks God.
There is no one who does good, not even one." (Romans 3:10-11)

"I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he
is obligated to obey the whole law." (Galatians 5:3)

One might sweat out an entire lifetime trying to keep only one of God's laws, much less all of them. No, keeping the law was not the way to justification. The law had four major purposes:

1. It shows us the moral character of God
2. It serves as a tutor to lead us to Christ.
3. It is a guide for Christian living.
4. Knowing the law can keep us from suffering the adverse consequences of sin.


SELF- JUSTIFICATION IN SCRIPTURE

It seems clear from scripture that there are only two possible sources of obtaining justification: from one's own self, or from an outside source. Mark chapter 10 gives us an illustration of one man's attempt to justify himself before God (before Jesus). A rich young man is asking Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life. In verse 18 Jesus responded by stating, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." Jesus goes on to list a number of the Ten Commandments as the standard by which the young man must measure his actions. The young man remarked, "Teacher, all these I have kept since I was a boy." To which Jesus then said, "One thing you lack. God, sell everything you have and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." The story ends when the young man's face fell and he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

There are a number of lessons in this story. One of these was that the young man was trying to justify himself before Jesus by indicating he was "keeping the law," when in reality he was in violation of the commandment not to make for one's self any idols. Money was the young man's idol, and thus he had already broken the law. Perhaps some other young man might have listened to Jesus reciting the commandments and come to realize that not only could he not keep them in the future, but he had already broken many of them in the past. The conversation might well have then taken a different turn. He might have said something like, "Teacher, I confess that I have not kept the whole law, and I guess I need to be truthful and tell you that I don't think I can keep it in the future either. What then can I do?" I'm fairly sure that Jesus would have told him to believe in Him, and then he will receive eternal life. One other note: later in the story of the rich young man Jesus noted that, "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples asked, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus responded by saying, "With man this is impossible, but not with God. With God, all things are possible" (v. 27). The crux of the message was that it is impossible for a rich man to justify himself, especially when he is engaging in idol worship. Though man might possess great wealth, and achieve tremendous influence in the worldly system, he still has two major problems: one, he still is unable to keep the law; and two, he is completely helpless in justifying himself before God - he needs divine assistance. Only God can justify a person righteous. And it's not by the works of man that this is achieved, but by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Two other examples of men seeking to justify themselves before God can be found in Luke 16:15 and 18:11. It is from these types of Biblical references that the Bible paints an exceedingly clear picture that man, of himself, has no means of self-justification. Only God is able to perform that work.

PAUL AND JAMES - Are they in agreement with each other?

Much has been said over the years about salvation, justification, and works, and their relationship to each other. I think it is best to look at this from a chronological perspective, starting with the words of the apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this
not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that
no one can boast."

Paul makes the following points:

1. You are saved by (God's) grace through faith (in Jesus Christ).
2. This salvation did not originate from yourselves.
3. It is the gift of God (therefore it cannot be earned).
4. This salvation is not by any type of works that a man can perform.


Back in Romans chapter 4, Paul gave an illustration from Genesis 15:6 concerning Abraham's justification:


"If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something
to boast about - but not before God. What does the scripture
say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as
righteousness." (Romans 4:2-3)

Now, going forward to James chapter 2 we read:

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but
has no deeds (works)? Can such faith save him? Faith, by
itself, if it is not accompanied by action (works - KJV), is dead.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds
is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous
for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You
see, a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

James is clearly referring to Genesis chapter 22 as the point where Abraham was justified righteous. What we see here is an illustration that James uses to answer those people who are claiming to have saving faith but no works. Specifically, he states, "Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? (what good is that man's faith?)" In effect, James is saying, "You claim to have faith? You claim that God has saved you, put His Holy Spirit in you, and sealed you for redemption? You claim all these things and yet you let the poor go without food or clothes? What kind of a faith is that? I, James, will tell you quite frankly that if you possess the kind of saving faith that results in regeneration and changes a person's life, the Holy Spirit will do a work in you and cause you to follow the Lord's decrees (Ezekiel 36:27) and feed and clothe the poor."

Well, what then does Paul state about works as proof that a person's life is changed? Perhaps not surprisingly, he agrees with James:

"I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove
their repentance by their deeds." (Acts 26:20)


So why did Paul state in Ephesians that a person is saved by grace through faith, and not by works? And why did he refer to Genesis 15:6 as the point of Abraham's justification and not Genesis 22? Initial saving faith is the precursor to works. Abraham was not saved (justified righteous) by performing works, he was performing works because he first was saved and regenerated by faith. Works is the result of our regeneration and salvation, not the cause of it. Faith by grace is the antecedent of works. It chronologically occurs first. Once the Holy Spirit indwells a believer at the point of salvation, He starts the process of progressive sanctification (see Ezekiel 36:25-27), and one of the effects of the indwelling Spirit is that of causing, or compelling a person, by a change of heart and mind, to perform works of a Godly nature. James' argument addresses that time period of a person's life, following true salvation and regeneration, when good works is supposed to be in evidence. He is saying, "Now that you claim to be saved, we should be seeing some good works out of you. However, if these good works are not apparent, then your initial faith was probably not genuine, and you were never, either in the eyes of God, nor in the eyes of man, justified righteous."

Another way to illustrate this is to consider the thief on the cross next to Jesus - the one who stated, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Then Jesus responded by saying, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:42-43). It was at this particular moment that the repentant thief received his salvation, and was justified righteous in the eyes of God. This particular moment would also coincide with Genesis 15:6, when Abraham believed God and it was credited (imputed to his account) as righteousness, and would also coincide with what Paul stated in Ephesians 2:8-9. Note that there is no evidence that the thief had performed any good works in his life. To the contrary, his works were more of a criminal nature than a Godly nature. That was the very reason he was being crucified. Even as he initially hung from his cross, he heaped insults on the Lord (Mark 15:32). But then the sky darkened, his pain and suffering magnified, and the words Jesus spoke on the cross hit their appointed target, and the thief had a change of heart and believed on the Lord. At that point, the thief received his salvation and justification.

Now, if by some means the thief could have come down from the cross, prior to death, and continued on with his life, then eventually his saving faith would have produced good works (corresponding to Abraham in Genesis 22 and James chapter 2). There is a progression whereby salvation leads to good works. In the eyes of God, Abraham was genuinely justified righteous in Genesis 15:6. Because his faith was genuine, it produced his works in Genesis 22, whereby he was seen as being justified righteous in the eyes of men. James and Paul, though they approach the issue of justification from two different points in time and two different perspectives (the perspective of God and the perspective of man), nevertheless are in total agreement with each other.

So, that should clear that one up.

Cheers...
Last edited by Easyrider on Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Easyrider

Post #4

Post by Easyrider »

More on Justification:

Please keep in mind my previous post on Justification when reviewing the following:

I think it best to place in proper context the significance of works as it relates to salvation and justification. There is in Scripture one passage which actually clarifies the relationship between salvation (Justification), works, and rewards. That passage is I Corinthians 3:11-15 -

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

The Full Life Study Bible provides these remarks on the above passage:

"HE WILL SUFFER LOSS: There is a future judgment for believers (I John 4:17) as to the degree of their faithfulness to God and the grace given to them during this life on earth (v.10; 4:2-5; 2 Cor.5:10). In that judgment there is the possibility that a believer, although receiving salvation, may experience great loss (Greek zemloo, meaning 'to suffer loss or damage'). The careless believer is in danger of suffering loss or damage in the following ways: (1) a feeling of shame at Christ's coming (2 Ti. 2:15; 1 John 2:28); (2) loss of his or her life's work for God (vv. 12-15); (3) loss of glory and honor before God (cf. Romans 2:7); (4) loss of opportunity for service and authority in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (5) a low position in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (6) loss of rewards (cf. v. 14-15); and (7) repayment for the wrong done to others (Col. 3:24-25).

AS ONE ESCAPING THROUGH THE FLAMES: 'Escaping through the flames' is probably an expression meaning 'barely saved.' God will evaluate the quality of life, influence, teaching, and work in the church of each person. If his work is judged unworthy, he will lose his (heavenly) reward, yet he himself will be saved." ( Full Life 1755-56)

Godly works do not result in justification, but are directed towards the glory of God and the edification and salvation of others, and eventually result in some type of heavenly rewards. For those who may have been saved just prior to death (the thief on the cross), there may not be any works to reward, yet their salvation is yet assured. It is my contention that once a person is regenerated, eventually, if they live long enough, there should be some sort of Godly works in their life (James chapter 2).

Easyrider

Post #5

Post by Easyrider »

QUOTE: Was John the Baptist Elijah?

Matthew 17:12-13
But I say unto you, That Elias [Elijah] is come already.... then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

John 1:21
And they asked him [John the Baptist], What then? Art thou Elias [Elijah]? And he saith, I am not.

(end of quote)

Hey Joe,

You forgot Luke 1:17 - "And he shall go before Him in the SPIRIT and POWER of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people Prepared for the Lord."

John the Baptist wasnt Elijah, but he did come in the spirit and power of Elijah.

Was John the Baptist Elijah?

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/readi ... .cgi?id=59

Again, no Biblical "mistake".

God bless! :)

Easyrider

Post #6

Post by Easyrider »

QUOTE: Is God the creator of evil?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

1 John 4:8
God is love.

(end of quote)

That word "evil" is strongly akin to "calamity". Since there must be rewards for both good and evil, calamity, or divine judgment, is the reward for evil. A God of love has to be one of Justice too. "Love" does not allow evil to continue on indefinitely to produce mayhem on innocent people.

Again, I don't see any Biblical "mistake"....

Later, bro!

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Post #7

Post by Joe Blackbird »

Easyrider wrote:

Again, I don't see any Biblical "mistake"....

Later, bro!
Here, Easyrider, I think we at last reach the crux of your lengthy argument.

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Post #8

Post by Joe Blackbird »

Easyrider wrote:
That word "evil" is strongly akin to "calamity". Since there must be rewards for both good and evil, calamity, or divine judgment, is the reward for evil. A God of love has to be one of Justice too. "Love" does not allow evil to continue on indefinitely to produce mayhem on innocent people.

FROM STRONGS HEBREW DICTIONARY:

rah, raw-aw'
bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine raah; as adjective or noun.]

Whatever English word you choose to represent the Hebrew- the God of love CAUSES the above. Shall we now argue the meaning of the Hebrew word for CAUSE. Here it is.

bârâ'
baw-raw'
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Now let's look at the Greek for love.

agapē
ag-ah'-pay
love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.


The problem with your apologetics Easyrider is that you run circles around the obvious meaning of the cited passages. By the time one is finished reading your argument all you have really done is parsed words. If one reads the Bible through your lens, it means what you say but doesn't say what you mean.

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Post #9

Post by Joe Blackbird »

Easyrider wrote:QUOTE: Was John the Baptist Elijah?

Matthew 17:12-13
But I say unto you, That Elias [Elijah] is come already.... then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

John 1:21
And they asked him [John the Baptist], What then? Art thou Elias [Elijah]? And he saith, I am not.

(end of quote)

Hey Joe,

You forgot Luke 1:17 - "And he shall go before Him in the SPIRIT and POWER of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people Prepared for the Lord."

John the Baptist wasnt Elijah, but he did come in the spirit and power of Elijah.

Again, no Biblical "mistake".

God bless! :)
And again, yes there is. Read the first biblical passage above. 'Elijah IS come'. It does not say, 'the spirit and power of Elijah is come'. The other passage you quoted from Luke was written by another writer and represents yet another view that is mutually exclusive to the two that I cited.

The 3 views-

1-Elijah has come
2-Elijah has not come
3-Elijah's spirit and power, not Elijah himself, has come.

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Re: Biblical Mistakes

Post #10

Post by Joe Blackbird »

Easyrider wrote:
Joe Blackbird wrote:
Are we justified by faith or works/deeds?
Hi Joe, you've presented a number of issues, all of which could be explained without having to allude to them as Biblical mistakes. Let's take a look at your "justification" argument for a moment...

LARGE SECTION DELETED FOR LENGTH-SEE ABOVE FOR ORIGINAL POST

So, that should clear that one up.

Cheers...
Actually, it doesn't.

I am not interested in a lengthy theological exposition on what merits human deliverance- the point I made in my original post is that the Bible does not agree with ITSELF on this (and other) issue(s). This is a contradiction. Also, I did not pit James against Paul as you cited in your response- where did I quote James?. You are side-stepping my argument with a lot of words. Read my earlier post and you will see the the words of the Bible are the problem here- not my theological perspective. I have cited 'the Bible', you have cited 'the experts'. Why can't you read the passages I cited and accept that they contradict each other? You are 'straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!' my friend.

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