The thief on the cross misconceptions

[DJT_47]

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

[bob the baptist]

[Replying to bob the baptist in post #56]

Thanks for responding, Bob! I’m away from home today, so I can’t address your entire post. I will do that later today. I especially want to give you my view concerning the thief on the cross.

Please take a closer look at Ephesians 1:13. Look at it in its original Greek language. The verse does not say one is saved the MOMENT they believe. It doesn’t say one is saved WHEN they believe. It says “having believed”. It doesn’t say the Ephesians weren’t baptized. In fact, we know for certain the Ephesians were baptized. See Acts 19:1-5.

The thing is, Bob, Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. We must reconcile all the Scriptures concerning baptism together. We cannot use one Scripture to refute what other verses say, and we need to be very careful not to read things into Scripture that simply are not there.

Romans 6:3-7 teaches that we are united together in the likeness of Christ’s death when we are immersed in water. Paul says our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with. For he who has died has been freed from sin..

Colossians 2:11-13 teaches us that baptism is a circumcision made without hands. It says baptism is the “working of God.” It says at baptism is when we are made alive, and our trespasses have been forgiven.

Baptism is the immediate context of both passages.

I pray your day has been blessed!

Kate

Pick whatever translation that fits your belief, but I'll go with those who know the greek and/or latin, or Aramaic, etc better than I. All the ones I read say I was sealed with the promised Holy Spirit WHEN I heard and believed. Let's not twist scripture into something Paul did not say. He's very clear about WHEN we received the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13
ESV
In him you also, WHEN you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
NIV
And you also were included in Christ WHEN you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. WHEN you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
NASB
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—HAVING ALSO BELIEVED, YOU WERE SEALED IN HIM in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
CSB
In him you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit WHEN you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and WHEN you believed.
NLT
And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And WHEN YOU BELIEVED in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.
KJV
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,'

Following is what is taught/explained to the Colossians about unification of Jews and Gentiles now in Christ and why Gentiles do not need to become Jews before they become Christians:
Colossians 2:11-13 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands (the mark/seal of the Holy Spirit), by putting off the body of the flesh (sins forgiven), by the circumcision of Christ (sacrifice on the cross), 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith (belief in the gospel) in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you (Jews and Gentiles), who were dead in your trespasses (Jews) and the uncircumcision of your flesh (Gentiles), God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all (Jews and Gentiles) our trespasses,

I don't see where it says baptism is a work of God. I see where it says, we were raised with him through faith by God. And baptism coincides with circumcision except that now we have the Spirit indwelling we do not require the Priest circumcising us (with hands) to say we are a child of God. Abrahamic circumcision identified Jews as children of God) now the Holy Spirit marks us as children of God and baptism shows we believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Look, no hands!! I do also see that this passage could be the reason for those who believe baptism is for church membership, but that's a different debate anyway.

Romans 6:3-7 does not mention water.
Baptism means complete immersion or submerged. The Jews were doing water baptism (mikveh) long before John (a Jewish Levite, likely a Nazarite). John continued the ritual and warned the Jews to prepare for the messiah. John tells the Jews Jesus would baptize in the Holy Spirit and Fire. Now I'm not saying there was no water baptism or how many baptisms there are, I'm just saying that there is no mention of immersion in water in Romans 6:3-7. I'll read the entire chapter later but, it could have been immersion into the Holy Spirit, or Fire, or whatever, but if I give you a quote or passage, I must include what is actually there or scripture will end up contradicting scripture in my view. Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire (judgement). Same as you inviting me to view the greek in Eph 1:13. Now that you have read how every scholar who knows greek better than I interprets Eph 1:13 you can now see how scripture does not contradict my scripture at all.

[William]

[Replying to bob the baptist in post #56]

The bible says clearly we are not Christians unless we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:9) and it says without refute, we receive the indwelling when we believe (Eph 1:13)

This aligns with what is uncovered re Exploring Existence within the Creator's Mind

It involves "what one believes" and how what one believes can either lead one away from misconception - or into misconception.

[bob the baptist]

[Replying to bob the baptist in post #56]

The bible says clearly we are not Christians unless we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:9) and it says without refute, we receive the indwelling when we believe (Eph 1:13)

This aligns with what is uncovered re Exploring Existence within the Creator's Mind

It involves "what one believes" and how what one believes can either lead one away from misconception - or into misconception.

Made me smile but then having to read all of it I stopped (LOL). Reminded me of "who can know the mind of God", existential kind o' stuff. "I think, therefore I am". but yeah, in the end, what does it matter if its in God's mind or my own. I can't argue/debate either.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to bob the baptist in post #61]

Hey Bob,

Are you familiar with biblehub.com? It’s a great resource for people like us who are not experts in Hebrew or Koine Greek. If you search Ephesians 1:13 there or in any Interlinear, you will learn that the word WHEN is not in the extant manuscripts for that verse.

I knew that some translators chose to insert WHEN, but if we’re honest, the word WHEN simply isn’t there, and by adding it, the meaning of the verse gets changed.

The literal translation is as follows: Please look it up for yourself.

“and in (Him) having heard and believed the word of truth- the gospel of your salvation- you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit”.

Sorry, my bad! It is Colossians 2:12 not 2:13 that says baptism is “the working of God.” It is God who performs a spiritual circumcision, one made without hands.

To Be Cont.’

Kate

[bob the baptist]

[Replying to bob the baptist in post #61]

Hey Bob,

Are you familiar with biblehub.com? It’s a great resource for people like us who are not experts in Hebrew or Koine Greek. If you search Ephesians 1:13 there or in any Interlinear, you will learn that the word WHEN is not in the extant manuscripts for that verse.

I knew that some translators chose to insert WHEN, but if we’re honest, the word WHEN simply isn’t there, and by adding it, the meaning of the verse gets changed.

The literal translation is as follows: Please look it up for yourself.

“and in (Him) having heard and believed the word of truth- the gospel of your salvation- you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit”.

Sorry, my bad! It is Colossians 2:12 not 2:13 that says baptism is “the working of God.” It is God who performs a spiritual circumcision, one made without hands.

To Be Cont.’

Kate

[MissKate13]

You wrote,

Following is what is taught/explained to the Colossians about unification of Jews and Gentiles now in Christ and why Gentiles do not need to become Jews before they become Christians:
Colossians 2:11-13 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands (the mark/seal of the Holy Spirit), by putting off the body of the flesh (sins forgiven), by the circumcision of Christ (sacrifice on the cross), 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith (belief in the gospel) in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you (Jews and Gentiles), who were dead in your trespasses (Jews) and the uncircumcision of your flesh (Gentiles), God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all (Jews and Gentiles) our trespasses,”

My response:

In Christ a circumcision has taken place (Colossians 2:11-12) . Paul immediately wants the readers to know that this is a symbol. It is a circumcision that is not made by human hands. A spiritual circumcision is taking place. Since it is a spiritual circumcision, we need to learn what is being cut off. It is not what the Jew experienced. Theirs was a physical removal of flesh. The circumcision made by God is different. Paul explains that this circumcision is the cutting off the body of sin. Paul used this idea of the body of sin a number of times. Notice the idea in Romans 6:6.

We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. (Romans 6:6 ESV)

You wrote:
“I don't see where it says baptism is a work of God. I see where it says, we were raised with him through faith by God. And baptism coincides with circumcision except that now we have the Spirit indwelling we do not require the Priest circumcising us (with hands) to say we are a child of God. Abrahamic circumcision identified Jews as children of God) now the Holy Spirit marks us as children of God and baptism shows we believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Look, no hands!! I do also see that this passage could be the reason for those who believe baptism is for church membership, but that's a different debate anyway.”

My response:
Again, I suggest you go to BibleHub.com. Look at the different translations of Colossians 2:12, and more importantly, look at the Greek.

I appreciate your willingness to read Colossians 2 again. I hope you read Romans 6 as well. I believe you have an honest and good heart for the Lord. May I suggest you read those passages for what ithey say , and not force them to fit your existing beliefs. I know that’s hard to do. It took me years to get to that point. When I read the scriptures now, I always pray to God that He show me His truth and not mine. Let the Holy l Spirit teach you.

Romans 2:12
“buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.” (NKJV)

You wrote:
Romans 6:3-7 does not mention water.
Baptism means complete immersion or submerged. The Jews were doing water baptism (mikveh) long before John (a Jewish Levite, likely a Nazarite). John continued the ritual and warned the Jews to prepare for the messiah. John tells the Jews Jesus would baptize in the Holy Spirit and Fire. Now I'm not saying there was no water baptism or how many baptisms there are, I'm just saying that there is no mention of immersion in water in Romans 6:3-7. I'll read the entire chapter later but, it could have been immersion into the Holy Spirit, or Fire, or whatever, but if I give you a quote or passage, I must include what is actually there or scripture will end up contradicting scripture in my view. Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire (judgement). Same as you inviting me to view the greek in Eph 1:13. Now that you have read how every scholar who knows greek better than I interprets Eph 1:13 you can now see how scripture does not contradict my scripture at all.”

My Response
[Paul declared that there is only ONE baptism and the baptism we read about in Acts is people being immersed in water (the eunuch, etc.) The apostle Paul himself was told by Ananias, “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’ (Acts 22:16)

John said he baptized with water. Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit. John did not say water baptism would be no more. He is simply saying that the baptism he was doing was a baptism of repentance and forgiveness of sins. The baptism Jesus commanded was also for repentance and forgiveness of sins but would also immerse one with the Holy Spirit.

Peter told the Jews on Pentecost, “ “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

We cannot ignore Paul’s words. There is one baptism (Ephesians 4:5), not two.
[color]

[bob the baptist]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #66]

Well, it seems we are both talking but not listening here. Please post a different debate question to keep it orderly. I've read and reread trying to understand your differences but can't find anything that bothers me so I'm thinking you do not see the forest for the tree. It has to be taken in context. I think you are saying you think water baptism is required for salvation? I think not. That might be the difference if true. If you are saying its faith plus baptism then I would reckon you are a Campbellite and then we have major issues. I'll reread again, but just not finding your point.

[William]

[Replying to bob the baptist in post #56]

The bible says clearly we are not Christians unless we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:9) and it says without refute, we receive the indwelling when we believe (Eph 1:13)

This aligns with what is uncovered re Exploring Existence within the Creator's Mind

It involves "what one believes" and how what one believes can either lead one away from misconception - or into misconception.

Made me smile but then having to read all of it I stopped (LOL).

Do you know mindfully, why you stopped?

Reminded me of "who can know the mind of God", existential kind o' stuff.

Yes. Apparently the kind of stuff Jesus claimed to know...

"I think, therefore I am". but yeah, in the end, what does it matter if its in God's mind or my own. I can't argue/debate either.

Yet here you are, debating other minds you do not know either.

So then, what is the point of baptism if it gets you no closer to knowing one's own mindfulness or the mindfulness of "God"?

[MissKate13]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #66]

Well, it seems we are both talking but not listening here. Please post a different debate question to keep it orderly. I've read and reread trying to understand your differences but can't find anything that bothers me so I'm thinking you do not see the forest for the tree. It has to be taken in context. I think you are saying you think water baptism is required for salvation? I think not. That might be the difference if true. If you are saying its faith plus baptism then I would reckon you are a Campbellite and then we have major issues. I'll reread again, but just not finding your point.

Imho, having discussions in a forum such as this is very difficult. The conversation would be so much more beneficial if people were face to face. That said, I will try to listen better.

Imho, the reason forum discussions go nowhere is because we try to make too many points in our posts. I can’t speak for others, but I find it overwhelming to address that many points. As a result, it comes across as me not listening. I suggest that only one or two passages be discussed at a time until they have been exhausted.

I should have told you up front that I was raised in Catholicism, and educated in Catholic school. I left home at a very young age. After being exposed to the Scriptures, I left the Catholic Church. In 1977, I obeyed the gospel and was baptized. I began worshiping with the church of Christ. I’ve been with them ever since, though with several different congregations due to moving between CT, FL and now TN.

Yes, I believe baptism is necessary for salvation. Jesus commanded it. He never once said believers “should” be baptized. That is the mantra of the Baptist church. I don’t know of a single one of Jesus’ commandments that is optional. Obedience to His commands is a demonstration of faith and our love for Him.

My point to you has been that Romans 6:3-7 and Colossians 2:11-13 teach that baptism is a burial. We are United with Christ in His death when we are immersed. People who have been made alive (been saved) don’t get buried. Baptism is the time we are made alive and are set free from sin. A careful reading of these verses, line by line, word by word, shows this to be truth. There’s no getting around it.

You say the thief on the cross was saved, but wasn’t baptized. How do you know he wasn’t? We cannot say definitively that he was or wasn’t baptized. The Scriptures do not tell us. Therefore, we should not be dogmatic about it either way. It’s a very disingenuous argument imho.

We know very little about the thief. Here’s what we do know.

The thief seemed to know quite a lot about Jesus. He openly rebuked his counterpart saying “Dost not thou fear God”? This man knew who God was and knew he was to be feared more than dying on that cross.

He openly, before everyone, including the other thief, made an appeal directly to Jesus addressing him as “Lord.” He knew who Jesus was and confessed Him before men.

Both the thieves started out mocking and reviling Jesus just like everybody else. But in Luke's account we see one of them has a change of heart.. He rebukes the other criminal. He tells him we’re getting what we deserve, but this man (Jesus) has done nothing wrong. This is repentance! The thief knew he was guilty and was sorry for it. He demonstrated his repentance.

The thief believed that Christ was a “king,” and that His crucifixion would not be the end forJesus. He said, "Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom". This man knew they were going to physically die, yet he asked Jesus to remember him when he came into His kingdom. The thief therefore had to believe in the resurrection of the dead. One must ask how this man would know of these things without being taught.

The Baptist church teaches salvation by faith alone, yet we can see by the thief’s own words, he wasn’t saved by faith alone. He openly confessed with his mouth Jesus as Lord. He outwardly demonstrated a change of behavior, which is repentance. Was he baptized? The Scriptures do not say!

The Baptist church teaches that baptism is a work. I’ve asked many Baptists to provide Scripture for this claim. No one has been able to.

Hopefully this post clears things up for you. I’d really like to continue the conversation. We can continue to discuss the Romans 6 and Colossians 2 passages and see where we can agree, or we can talk about the thief. I always learn something from these discussions.

Have a blessed day!

Kate

[bob the baptist]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #69]

Yes MissKate13, thanks for the honesty. But Baptists do not all say the same thing about baptism. Southern Baptists do promote full-immersion water baptism "in obedience to the commands of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" , I believe is how it goes. We don't actually say "should". We say, true Christians (who have the indwelling) WANT to be baptized and witnessed by the brethren. To us 1 Peter 3 is pretty clear on what the story of Baptism represents. We believe that for one to be baptized they must be of age to understand it.
That said, Baptists tend to differ on the subject and that is O.K. with us because the water does not save. For instance, I tend to think pouring, sprinkling, dunking, etc. are legalistic and it doesn't matter how wet one gets, as long as the story of the gospel gets told and witnessed by the fellowship of believers, whereas, others say full immersion matters, and there are many that say it is not necessary if you are not converting from Judaism because we are now baptized by the Holy Spirit. They are not as vocal about their belief for fear of being called a Pentecostal (far from it actually). And I personally can agree with them also. Personally, I believe there are many Catholics who I will see in Heaven because they believe the gospel. Just because they believe in legalistic rituals, Purgatory, wafers literally turning into the body of Christ, Priests determining ones salvation, losing salvation, and on and on, ironically does not affect their salvation if they truly believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. My overall point of baptism (and my last post here, just for you) is that haters are going to hate and those who love are of God. My bible is different than yours, Latter Day Saints and JWs. Mine clearly shows God only recognizes those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Rom 8:9. and Romans 8:16 The Spirit HIMSELF (nothing or no one else) bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. And Ephesians 1:13 and others clearly says we receive the indwelling because of our belief and that its a momentary happening. Eph 1:14 says we are sealed (seals are not to be opened) by anyone other than the redeemer. No earthly intercessor determines my salvation.
I say all that to show that these differences can not be debated at all because we compare the proverbial apple to an orange. You might as well be arguing with the A.I. on this forum (I think there is more than one, but not sure). I would strongly advise not being on this forum or those like it because it is full of hate and vitriol. There is no point in debating an athiest, or non-trinitarian. 1 Corinthians 2:14 “The natural man does not receive the things (gifts) of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”. I do like to find out WHY some think as they do. But I'm not usually going to engage them unless I have a question of how they think. JWs as an example, do not claim to be Christians. Mormons do, but do not worship the same "trinitarian" beliefs of Jesus as we do. I have no arguments with them but I like to see where they are coming from.
I strive to be identified as a Christian. I'm most proud of myself when someone recognizes my faith because of how I act. If a Morman, JW, Churches of Christ, or non-trinitarians, claim I'm going to hell because our doctrines don't match up, I'm not bothered. Their hell is their own. I just assume they do not have the indwelling as required in my bible. John's (the revelator) main message is that you can know when someone does not have the indwelling, they do not love their brother, or even claim you as a brother.
Paul reminds me:
Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? To his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
If one can not call me a brother in Christ because I claim Jesus as Lord and believe his gospel, then they reveal themselves to me as most likely not a Christian, and if they are, they are excused for their immaturity.
Please continue to stand up for God and his word when needed, don't cast your pearls before swine, remain humble and kind and don't get entangled in twisted scripture, and don't attempt to measure your level of knowledge against a brother in Christ.
I hope you understand some baptists a little better. Go visit us sometime just to get to know us. You won't hate us. Plenty of pot roast and prayer to go around.