If the shroud of Turin proves the Christian Bible......

[Athetotheist]

In another thread which I've mentioned elsewhere, it's conceded that the Christian Bible is not inerrant and contains inconsistencies. It's argued, however, that those errors don't matter, that the Christian Bible should be believed even though it isn't consistently believable because.....the shroud of Turin! A Jesus-like image on a piece of linen is supposed to overrule all the critical objections to the problematic narrative and make it A-okay for Christianity's founding texts to be as inconsistent and error-ridden as Christian apologists assume the texts of other religions to be.

If the shroud of Turin can be regarded as proof of Christianity, why can't quantum mechanics be regarded as proof of Hinduism?


"For example, it allowed electrons to tunnel through walls, particles to exist simultaneously in two places at once, black holes to evaporate, and information to be exchanged between observers faster than light.

"This was a crucial moment in history, when physics was in a state of major upheaval. The familiar classical picture of reality was being disrupted by one that seemed to be too crazy to be true, even as it explained numerous experimental observations that the former could not. Einstein, Bohr, Schrödinger, Heisenberg and others were deeply troubled by its implications. Indeed, they were faced with a personal dilemma: to believe a preposterous theory that worked or discard it for an intuitive theory that didn’t work.

"At this critical juncture, they discovered that their notion, that the world we see is not reality itself but a projection onto our consciousness, wasn’t completely new. In the ancient Indian texts known as the Upanishads, they found echoes of their theories, and a philosophical foundation to ensure they would no longer be cast adrift by the implications of quantum mechanics."

https://science.thewire.in/society/hist ... panishads/


"The Vedas support the concept of Brahman as an enormous field that constitutes the true reality of the universe and is not divided into objects with larger or smaller dimensions, but remains what is at the basis of reality, namely reality itself - even though it manifests itself in each and every form and object of the visible universe.

"It is without dimensions and basically coincides with the concept of quantum nonlocality: it is a concept of God very different from that of other religions, especially those based on the Torah, the Koran, and the Bible, but in effect it is not even far from it. In Brahman there are all the planes of existence: divine, human, and infinite others that are superior and inferior to the human plane. These are considered illusory, nevertheless they are experienced as real for the living beings that inhabit them."

https://www.ancient-origins.net/artifac ... cs-0013945


If the holes in the Christian narrative can be swept under a piece of cloth bearing a faint image, and a questionable image at that, why can't the findings of QM be assumed to validate an Eastern concept of the universe----without those troublesome Biblical contradictions to deal with?

[fredonly]

If the shroud were true, it wouldn't prove the Bible is true, per se. It would only prove the Resurrection was true. Of course, that's central to Christianity, but it would leave other issues open, including the other NT narratives, Jesus' ostensible divinity, a virginal conception, etc.

[TRANSPONDER]

Two points there -

One is the idea of quantum supports Hinduism. Not really. What we have is a huge mass of natural reality. Further complicated by Quantum, which makes 'Reality less a case of solid matter you can bang on a table, and more a case of how human perceptions are interpreted by our brains, and the stunning idea that what exists may be conditioned by our observation of it, which makes one wonder where all the stuff came from before we were there to see it.

But what that does not do is get us to any particular man -made religion. Possibly an ordered mentality behind it all, but that is nothing to do with all the gods made (and remade, where necessary) in our image.

The other thing is the shroud. And I wont rehearse the evidence for and against it being the real body drape for Jesus. I'll just remark that, despite attempts to make it look like the relic of a miracle, it makes more sense as a temporary entombment that shouts an intent to remove the body, just as Matthew tells us the Jews claimed in his day. So, even if it is real, it doesn't mean that the resurrection - story is. Which is why i can be impartially interested in the Shroud; because it doesn't really matter.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #3

Two points there -

One is the idea of quantum supports Hinduism. Not really. What we have is a huge mass of natural reality. Further complicated by Quantum, which makes 'Reality less a case of solid matter you can bang on a table, and more a case of how human perceptions are interpreted by our brains, and the stunning idea that what exists may be conditioned by our observation of it, which makes one wonder where all the stuff came from before we were there to see it.

The purpose here is to draw a comparison between invoking QM to validate Hinduism and invoking the Turin cloth to validate Christianity.

But what that does not do is get us to any particular man -made religion. Possibly an ordered mentality behind it all, but that is nothing to do with all the gods made (and remade, where necessary) in our image.

No gods need be made in our image when the possibility of an ordered mentality behind it all is intriguing enough in itself.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #3

Two points there -

One is the idea of quantum supports Hinduism. Not really. What we have is a huge mass of natural reality. Further complicated by Quantum, which makes 'Reality less a case of solid matter you can bang on a table, and more a case of how human perceptions are interpreted by our brains, and the stunning idea that what exists may be conditioned by our observation of it, which makes one wonder where all the stuff came from before we were there to see it.

The purpose here is to draw a comparison between invoking QM to validate Hinduism and invoking the Turin cloth to validate Christianity.

The thing is the Shroud is hard to explain other than as a crucified man. Quantum hardly validates any religion, much less a particular one.

But what that does not do is get us to any particular man -made religion. Possibly an ordered mentality behind it all, but that is nothing to do with all the gods made (and remade, where necessary) in our image.

No gods need be made in our image when the possibility of an ordered mentality behind it all is intriguing enough in itself.

True. Non - religious Theism is perhaps a residual Faith -claim that at least avoids the various man -made gods in the image of the humans of that time. I do think it is just residual Godfaith, as there is actually no good reason to postulate a Cosmic Mind, even given there are unanswered questions.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #5

True. Non - religious Theism is perhaps a residual Faith -claim that at least avoids the various man -made gods in the image of the humans of that time. I do think it is just residual Godfaith, as there is actually no good reason to postulate a Cosmic Mind, even given there are unanswered questions.

Instead of hijacking this thread and taking it to the soapbox you stand on in so many others, why not just go there?

[TRANSPONDER]

Wasn't it you introduced the idea of Quantum validates Hinduism into a thread on the shroud rather than me? or, no One thing led to another in the OP. Sure. So how am I hi -jacking anything if I address both points?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #7

Wasn't it you introduced the idea of Quantum validates Hinduism into a thread on the shroud rather than me? or, no One thing led to another in the OP. Sure. So how am I hi -jacking anything if I address both points?

You're not addressing my point, which is to go from Turin-cloth-validates-Christianity to QM-validates-Hinduism as an if/then argument.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #7

Wasn't it you introduced the idea of Quantum validates Hinduism into a thread on the shroud rather than me? or, no One thing led to another in the OP. Sure. So how am I hi -jacking anything if I address both points?

You're not addressing my point, which is to go from Turin-cloth-validates-Christianity to QM-validates-Hinduism as an if/then argument.

You aren't addressing my point which is - there really is no comparison. One might well argue, if we are using the Webb telescope to fin planetary disc, why aren't we using it to identify the Cosmic Mind?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #9

You aren't addressing my point which is - there really is no comparison. One might well argue, if we are using the Webb telescope to fin planetary disc, why aren't we using it to identify the Cosmic Mind?

I'm not addressing your point because this isn't your topic; it's mine. Your topic we've discussed elsewhere.

Not every discussion is about what you want it to be about, and not every discussion has to be about what you want it to be about.