Theism Analogy: Living Rocks of Death Valley

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Theism Analogy: Living Rocks of Death Valley

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Post by boatsnguitars »

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The mystery of the sailing stones
Located on the border of California and Nevada, Death Valley National Park was designated in 1933, and is home to one of the world's strangest phenomena: rocks that move along the desert ground with no gravitational cause. Known as "sailing stones," the rocks vary in size from a few ounces to hundreds of pounds. Though no one has ever seen them actually move in person, the trails left behind the stones and periodic changes in their location make it clear that they do.

The rocks of Racetrack Playa are composed of dolomite and syenite, the same materials that make up the surrounding mountains. They tumble down due to the forces of erosion, coming to rest on the parched ground below. Once they reach the level surface of the playa, the rocks somehow move horizontally, leaving perfect tracks behind them to record their path.

Many of the largest rocks have left behind trails as long as 1,500 feet, suggesting that they've moved a long way indeed from their original location. Rocks with a rough-bottomed surface leave straight tracks, while smooth-bottomed rocks tend to wander. The sailing stones have been observed and studied since the early 1900s, and several theories have been suggested to explain their mysterious movements.
"Proposed explanations run the gamut from natural to paranormal to alien. Strange magnetic forces, psychic energy, alien spacecraft, teenage pranksters, and even transdimensional vortices have all been proposed. "

Theist explanation:
Supernatural forces exist. God is revealing Himself to us. God is moving them.
The wonder this phenomenon instills likewise reminds us of the majesty and power of the Invisible Intelligence (cf. Romans 1.20), creating the very physics making moving rocks possible.

As I read about the sailing stones, I could not help but recall the words of Jesus when asked by the Pharisees to rebuke His followers. The occasion was Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem. The people were crying out their “hosannas” to the Lord. Jesus told the Pharisees, quoting from the prophet Habakkuk, that “if these become silent, the stones will cry out!” (Luke 19.40 NASB; Habakkuk 2.11) Indeed!

If you ever question your worth to God, recall the sailing stones. Without the benefit of intelligence or purpose, they still point to their Creator. They appear to be immovable, and yet are pliable by the laws God put in place. As I take stock of what I can do, I note that even I can do more than the sailing stones, possessing locomotion and free will. How shameful, then, when I choose to sit silent as a boulder. May God use me like a rock so others can see my deeds and give God the glory (Matthew 5.13-16).
Further "science" from theists was that if the stones were pushed by a flood, the tracks would have been erased. Or, wind isn't strong enough. etc. There were many knee jerk answers to the problem, all included supernatural elements - because to them, that's the first explanation when something is unexplained.


Scientific explanation:
In 2014, scientists were able to capture the movement of the stones for the first time using time-lapse photography. The results strongly suggest that the sailing stones are the result of a perfect balance of ice, water, and wind. In the winter of 2014, rain formed a small pond that froze overnight and thawed the next day, creating a vast sheet of ice that was reduced by midday to only a few millimeters thick. Driven by a light wind, this sheet broke up and accumulated behind the stones, slowly pushing them forward.
https://www.nationalparks.org/connect/b ... f%20pounds.
https://earthsky.org/earth/death-valley ... ry-solved/

This is what is happening with the Shroud of Turin, Evolution, Climate Change, etc: Theists (and other wackos) offering ridiculous "answers" to solve very mundane problems.

So, what is your explanation for the rocks moving in Death Valley?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Theism Analogy: Living Rocks of Death Valley

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Post by 1213 »

boatsnguitars wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:29 am …Theist explanation:
Supernatural forces exist. God is revealing Himself to us. God is moving them.
If God would move those, I think He would write a message what you could read.
boatsnguitars wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:29 am…In 2014, scientists were able to capture the movement of the stones for the first time using time-lapse photography. The results strongly suggest that the sailing stones are the result of a perfect balance of ice, water, and wind. In the winter of 2014, rain formed a small pond that froze overnight and thawed the next day, creating a vast sheet of ice that was reduced by midday to only a few millimeters thick. Driven by a light wind, this sheet broke up and accumulated behind the stones, slowly pushing them forward…
It is amazing that no one has been watching it happening in real time. By what I see, the ice theory doesn’t seem to fit to the traces there. I would believe that things slide, if there is ice, but then they should not leave traces. And if the plane is not on ice, how could there be ice bellow the rock? But maybe it could be that the surface of the plane is just slippery enough when wet. If there would be some real scientist in this world, he could test the theory by wetting the surface and try to move a stone with some kind of fan.
boatsnguitars wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:29 amThis is what is happening with the Shroud of Turin, Evolution, Climate Change, etc: Theists (and other wackos) offering ridiculous "answers" to solve very mundane problems.
Interesting that you call those mundane problems. But, I think it is not necessary wrong to call wackos those who call climate change a problem.
boatsnguitars wrote: Sun Sep 24, 2023 6:29 amSo, what is your explanation for the rocks moving in Death Valley?

I have not studied it enough. But I would suggest that someone tests the theory that the rocks could be moved by wind, when the surface is wet.

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Re: Theism Analogy: Living Rocks of Death Valley

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

I recall that problem has now been solved. But until it was, it was like a magic trick of nature. We are foxed. We cannot think of any explanation other than a supernatural one. Good heavens, we do the same with the stone balls, Olmec heads and even pyramids and pre technology stone working. Our pal has a point - You'd expect God to write messages rather than trundle rocks about aimlessly. ut then you'd expect him to sort out the world's problems, not help people ind car keys, kick goals or get handed jobs over the telephone.

But there we are. We get fooled by magic tricks - until they are explained how. Nature and even humans do things that astound us. Sasayhuaman, the Antikythera mechanism and even Coad stone, done not by God, ghosts or space aliens but by a human. We just don't kow how.

This is the lesson. The unexplained is Unexplained, no God, ghosts or space aliens. It is probably natural even if we don't know what. That is what we call the materialist default. So far it has come up with explanations, and the supernatural claims have not.

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Re: Theism Analogy: Living Rocks of Death Valley

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Post by boatsnguitars »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 10:15 am I recall that problem has now been solved. But until it was, it was like a magic trick of nature. We are foxed. We cannot think of any explanation other than a supernatural one. Good heavens, we do the same with the stone balls, Olmec heads and even pyramids and pre technology stone working. Our pal has a point - You'd expect God to write messages rather than trundle rocks about aimlessly. ut then you'd expect him to sort out the world's problems, not help people ind car keys, kick goals or get handed jobs over the telephone.

But there we are. We get fooled by magic tricks - until they are explained how. Nature and even humans do things that astound us. Sasayhuaman, the Antikythera mechanism and even Coad stone, done not by God, ghosts or space aliens but by a human. We just don't kow how.

This is the lesson. The unexplained is Unexplained, no God, ghosts or space aliens. It is probably natural even if we don't know what. That is what we call the materialist default. So far it has come up with explanations, and the supernatural claims have not.
It has been solved. They have video! The ice forms, melts a little, breaks up and builds little walls that the wind pushes.

The funny thing is, I debated this with a theist about 20 years ago. They had all kinds of explanations that included supernatural forces. I told him there was no evidence for natural forces. He felt he could insert supernatural reasons - as Apologists do.

Here's another one to drive us crazy.

Trump says: Wind turbines are killing whales.

https://www.energy.gov/articles/address ... ortalities
As of now, there is no evidence to support speculation that noise resulting from wind development-related site characterization surveys could potentially cause mortality of whales, and no specific links between recent large whale mortalities and currently ongoing surveys.
No evidence! Then it must be supernatural! Then it must confirm that they are killing whales!

This is the kind of reasoning that permeates humaniity. It's exhausting!
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Theism Analogy: Living Rocks of Death Valley

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Post by William »

Supernaturalism is akin to a curtain which is used by Supernaturalists to make claims about what is behind said curtain, and those claims themselves vary and there is oft disagreement among them as to the truth of any supernatural claims which is contrary to any other supernatural claim.

I am fast coming to the realization that such needn't even be referred to or treated/respected as "claims".
Re the advice "do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God"
I pointed out to a supernaturalist recently, that if supernatural entities can communicate with humans, then their interactions could potentially be measured or investigated scientifically through the data from these communications.

The response from the supernaturalist argued that certain biblical passages may be interpreted differently, and suggested by way of explaining why this couldn't happen was due to the cessation of certain supernatural phenomena mentioned by Paul because "testing the spirits" was specific to Paul's time and context, and not a general statement about all supernatural interactions, in any other time and context since.

I think Jung's studies/tests shed light on these supposed "supernatural entities" (such as "deceiving/lying demons") and he identified these as aspects of the human mind - a natural enough explanation - at least allowing the opportunity for more study/sciences than those "non-things" hiding behind an invisible curtain/veil can ever allow.

At this point I find the concept of and defense of Supernaturalism to being ludicrous.

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Re: Theism Analogy: Living Rocks of Death Valley

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Post by 1213 »

boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2023 11:05 am ...Wind turbines are killing whales....
It is not only Trump who says so.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/kill-whales

https://nypost.com/2023/08/26/new-docum ... ll-whales/

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Re: Theism Analogy: Living Rocks of Death Valley

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Post by otseng »

1213 wrote: Mon Sep 25, 2023 5:12 amBut, I think it is not necessary wrong to call wackos those who call climate change a problem.
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Re: Theism Analogy: Living Rocks of Death Valley

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Post by Diogenes »

1213 wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:34 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2023 11:05 am ...Wind turbines are killing whales....
It is not only Trump who says so.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/kill-whales

https://nypost.com/2023/08/26/new-docum ... ll-whales/
You can also find sources online that claim to have evidence the Earth is flat, like the Bible claims.
This is the problem in analyzing anything today. You may recall Trump claimed injecting or swallowing bleach could stop COVID.
You can always find someone or some organization that makes absurd claims, like those of "Answers in Genesis" or that the Exodus happened the way the Bible claimed. But the quality of the source should always be considered.

As for the silly claims about wind turbines hurting whales, there simply is no evidence.

At this point, there is no scientific evidence that noise resulting from offshore wind site characterization surveys could potentially cause mortality of whales. There are no known links between recent large whale mortalities and ongoing offshore wind surveys.

We will continue to gather data to help us determine the cause of death for these mortality events. We will also continue to explore how sound, vessel, and other human activities in the marine environment impact whales and other marine mammals.

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/new-engl ... and-whales

As of now, there is no evidence to support speculation that noise resulting from wind development-related site characterization surveys could potentially cause mortality of whales, and no specific links between recent large whale mortalities and currently ongoing surveys.

https://www.energy.gov/articles/address ... ortalities



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Re: Theism Analogy: Living Rocks of Death Valley

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Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 5:34 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Sep 26, 2023 11:05 am ...Wind turbines are killing whales....
It is not only Trump who says so.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/kill-whales
These wind turbines have killed massive numbers of whales, porpoises and birds. This is from a New York Post article following Earth Day:..........
Incredible claim, but the article that follows contains nothing to back it up. Where is the actual evidence?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Theism Analogy: Living Rocks of Death Valley

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Post by 1213 »

Diogenes wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:15 pm ...You may recall Trump claimed injecting or swallowing bleach could stop COVID. ...
Actually I would like to see him saying that. Sounds too much like mainstream media propaganda that has not much to do with truth.
Diogenes wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:15 pmYou can always find someone or some organization that makes absurd claims, like those of "Answers in Genesis" or that the Exodus happened the way the Bible claimed. But the quality of the source should always be considered.
You make funny claims, almost absurd I would say. :D
Diogenes wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:15 pmAs for the silly claims about wind turbines hurting whales, there simply is no evidence.
That sounds much like the experts who told there is no evidence for smoking being harmful. But yeah, we must always trust the experts, even if they would change mind every second day. :D

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