The Lord's prayer

[placebofactor]

Following is my understanding of the Lord’s prayer.
The disciples said to Jesus, "Lord, teach us to pray." Jesus said to his disciples, "When you pray, say, our Father which art in Heaven Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; --- lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Let’s break the prayer down:
Luke 11:1-2-3-4, "Our Father," Jesus is our everlasting Father, Isaiah 9:6, "His name shall be called, -- everlasting Father."

"Which art in Heaven." Colossians 3:1, "Christ sits on the right hand of God (the Father)" in heaven.

Ephesians 1:20, "Christ, when He (the Father) raised Him from the dead and set (seated) Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places."

"Hollowed be thy name."
Christ is, Ephesians 1:21, "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come."
Philippians 2:10, "That at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, of things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

"Thy kingdom come"
John 18:36, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

Ephesians 5:5, "No whoremonger, nor unclean person, --- hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Colossians 1:13, The Father, "Hath translated (transferred us) into the kingdom of His dear Son."

2 Timothy 4:1, "The Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick (the living) and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom."

2 Peter 1:11, "The everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

John wrote in Revelation 1:9, "I John, who also am your brother, and --- in the kingdom and patience (perseverance) of Jesus Christ."

"Thy will be done." The Father's will is the will of both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. He is King of Kings." The kingdom is his by inheritance.

"As in heaven, so on earth." Jesus will establish His kingdom here on earth for 1000 years.

"Give us day by day our daily bread." As our Father he cares for his children, he feeds us the food of men, and He is our spiritual manna from heaven.

"Forgive us our sins."
By faith in Jesus Christ are we saved. We are also to forgive everyone who is indebted to us" Jesus gave us another commandment. The commandment to love all men.

"Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil," meaning lead us away from the evil one. This is done through His Holy Spirit working not through our flesh, but through our spirit.

Your thoughts.

[APAK]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

My thoughts on this subject...

The Lord's prayer was given prior to the ascension of Christ. And thus, in part, fulfilled after his ascension.

It was a prayer to Christ's Father, who is God and to those of the people of God that would be in attendance at Pentecost and beyond, like the disciples. It was also a prayer that Christ communicated with his Father, in advance of his Kingdom rule. To let his know that his Son would soon establish the Kingdom after his death, resurrection and ascension into heaven. It was the primary goal of his ministry.

Adding in an expression of Isaiah 9:6 if it is original, into this prayer, or mix, only causes confusion. It does not mean that Christ was giving a prayer about himself and to himself.

If the 'Eternal Father' is original in Isaiah 9:6, it has to do with Christ being the 1st new creation/birth from the dead of God, to immortality. He became the father of it, and there's no one else that could for(ever) be this same father figure. He is the father of many to follow him into an immortal state of being.

And it's the Father in heaven who Christ is speaking to, not Christ being in heaven in the future.

And that the Kingdom was already established, in the past, and we are today still living in this symbolic 1000 year of Kingdom maturity and expansion in the hearts of the people living on the earth, in each generation.

The Father God's will shall be done in the process of today's ongoing Kingdom rule by Christ, by genuine believers on the earth, as God's will then is done in sync with heavenly bodies and heaven's oversight.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

My thoughts on this subject...

The Lord's prayer was given prior to the ascension of Christ. And thus, in part, fulfilled after his ascension.

It was a prayer to Christ's Father, who is God and to those of the people of God that would be in attendance at Pentecost and beyond, like the disciples. It was also a prayer that Christ communicated with his Father, in advance of his Kingdom rule. To let his know that his Son would soon establish the Kingdom after his death, resurrection and ascension into heaven. It was the primary goal of his ministry.

Adding in an expression of Isaiah 9:6 if it is original, into this prayer, or mix, only causes confusion. It does not mean that Christ was giving a prayer about himself and to himself.

If the 'Eternal Father' is original in Isaiah 9:6, it has to do with Christ being the 1st new creation/birth from the dead of God, to immortality. He became the father of it, and there's no one else that could for(ever) be this same father figure. He is the father of many to follow him into an immortal state of being.

And it's the Father in heaven who Christ is speaking to, not Christ being in heaven in the future.

And that the Kingdom was already established, in the past, and we are today still living in this symbolic 1000 year of Kingdom maturity and expansion in the hearts of the people living on the earth, in each generation.

The Father God's will shall be done in the process of today's ongoing Kingdom rule by Christ, by genuine believers on the earth, as God's will then is done in sync with heavenly bodies and heaven's oversight.

Your approach is correct if you think like a Jehovah's Witness and use the N.W.T. As long as a person believes that Jesus is not Jehovah, a created being, and the Holy Spirit is the breath of the Father, I would have to agree with you.

But I use the K.J.B. and would prefer most any other Bible or the N.I.V., or one that uses a similar text. But in my heart, and not because I have taken the advice of anyone or am siding with any particular denomination, and because I have done my own (IN Depth) research on the history of the King James Bible, the N.W.T., and the N.I.V which would take under its wing 99% of all other Bibles, the K.J.B. is superior to them all. And because that is the case, here are the reasons I have to disagree with your conclusions.

We can begin with the verse you referred to. Isaiah 9:6. It is correct: Why? The proof of its authenticity can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Jesus is, The mighty God, The everlasting Rather, and the Prince of Peace," Isaiah 9:6.

John 1:1, "And the Word was God." With verse 14, "The Word was made Flesh." That would be Jesus.

1 Timothy 3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh." That would be Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:16, "speaking of Jesus, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,"

Hebrews 1:8, The Father in heaven said the following concerning his beloved Son, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever:" The Father calls his Son God, then said, "Your throne is forever and ever:"

Revelation 1:8, Jesus' own words call himself "the Almighty."

Thomas is with Jesus, puts his hand in the wound in his side and said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God."

And I can go on. Now what the Watchtower had to do was change the wording or certain words in each of the above verses. The Witnesses used the K.J.B. until 1971 and have had three more copyrights since then, four all-toll.

I would challenge any Witness to make the same (honest) examinations that I made concerning the N.W.T. and the King James Bible. I don't mean a brush-over, but an intense investigation of your own, no outside interference. Go to any library, they have the books needed for the investigation. That's what I did. Examine their history, their founders, the men who did the translating, and their credentials. Take a close look at the Arian heresy of 325 A.D. and then follow its history right to the door of the Watchtower. Then examine the 1942 edition of the Watchtower published Diaglott, especially John 1:1. If you have an honest interest in your eternity, you would be a K.J.B. user because it is God's Word.

Anyway, thanks for your response.

[APAK]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

My thoughts on this subject...

The Lord's prayer was given prior to the ascension of Christ. And thus, in part, fulfilled after his ascension.

It was a prayer to Christ's Father, who is God and to those of the people of God that would be in attendance at Pentecost and beyond, like the disciples. It was also a prayer that Christ communicated with his Father, in advance of his Kingdom rule. To let his know that his Son would soon establish the Kingdom after his death, resurrection and ascension into heaven. It was the primary goal of his ministry.

Adding in an expression of Isaiah 9:6 if it is original, into this prayer, or mix, only causes confusion. It does not mean that Christ was giving a prayer about himself and to himself.

If the 'Eternal Father' is original in Isaiah 9:6, it has to do with Christ being the 1st new creation/birth from the dead of God, to immortality. He became the father of it, and there's no one else that could for(ever) be this same father figure. He is the father of many to follow him into an immortal state of being.

And it's the Father in heaven who Christ is speaking to, not Christ being in heaven in the future.

And that the Kingdom was already established, in the past, and we are today still living in this symbolic 1000 year of Kingdom maturity and expansion in the hearts of the people living on the earth, in each generation.

The Father God's will shall be done in the process of today's ongoing Kingdom rule by Christ, by genuine believers on the earth, as God's will then is done in sync with heavenly bodies and heaven's oversight.

Your approach is correct if you think like a Jehovah's Witness and use the N.W.T. As long as a person believes that Jesus is not Jehovah, a created being, and the Holy Spirit is the breath of the Father, I would have to agree with you.

But I use the K.J.B. and would prefer most any other Bible or the N.I.V., or one that uses a similar text. But in my heart, and not because I have taken the advice of anyone or am siding with any particular denomination, and because I have done my own (IN Depth) research on the history of the King James Bible, the N.W.T., and the N.I.V which would take under its wing 99% of all other Bibles, the K.J.B. is superior to them all. And because that is the case, here are the reasons I have to disagree with your conclusions.

We can begin with the verse you referred to. Isaiah 9:6. It is correct: Why? The proof of its authenticity can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Jesus is, The mighty God, The everlasting Rather, and the Prince of Peace," Isaiah 9:6.

John 1:1, "And the Word was God." With verse 14, "The Word was made Flesh." That would be Jesus.

1 Timothy 3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh." That would be Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:16, "speaking of Jesus, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,"

Hebrews 1:8, The Father in heaven said the following concerning his beloved Son, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever:" The Father calls his Son God, then said, "Your throne is forever and ever:"

Revelation 1:8, Jesus' own words call himself "the Almighty."

Thomas is with Jesus, puts his hand in the wound in his side and said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God."

And I can go on. Now what the Watchtower had to do was change the wording or certain words in each of the above verses. The Witnesses used the K.J.B. until 1971 and have had three more copyrights since then, four all-toll.

I would challenge any Witness to make the same (honest) examinations that I made concerning the N.W.T. and the King James Bible. I don't mean a brush-over, but an intense investigation of your own, no outside interference. Go to any library, they have the books needed for the investigation. That's what I did. Examine their history, their founders, the men who did the translating, and their credentials. Take a close look at the Arian heresy of 325 A.D. and then follow its history right to the door of the Watchtower. Then examine the 1942 edition of the Watchtower published Diaglott, especially John 1:1. If you have an honest interest in your eternity, you would be a K.J.B. user because it is God's Word.

Anyway, thanks for your response.

You really are not addressing the OP of the Lord's Prayer I see. You have another area of interest that is weighing on your mind I see. You want to impress upon me your theology over the topic at at-hand.

I do not agree that a JW only, if they even do, only thinks of the Lord's Prayer using my approach or its understanding. In fact I would say this subject has more to do with understanding scripture, context and not what one's theology and doctrines dictate.

And now what impact has a version or versions of the Bible to do with the understanding of the Lords' Prayer, as written down, that are very similar, in any version of the Bible?

And now you have completely left the thread subject to list certain only-one-verse scripture for what? To say you are a Trinitarian I expect, as my words said indicate otherwise? Well then thank you for telling me that...

And what do you know of historical Arian and all his doctrines and beliefs? I frankly know of a few of his beliefs only.

And for future reference, I do not like or do labels or labelling anyone in searching and knowing the truth in the holy writ. It kills off potential edifying discussions from the get-go.

If you are curious then and want to know what type of labels I might be close to or resemble in SOME parts...they would encompass being ...a strict Monotheist, Biblical Unitarian, a type of neo-preterist and a so-called A-millennialist.

If you want to discuss your listed scripture, then please let me know.

PS. I'm still get used to posting on this forum....I hope this post fires away as I expect it..

///Great Day and thanks for your post!

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #1]

My thoughts on this subject...

The Lord's prayer was given prior to the ascension of Christ. And thus, in part, fulfilled after his ascension.

It was a prayer to Christ's Father, who is God and to those of the people of God that would be in attendance at Pentecost and beyond, like the disciples. It was also a prayer that Christ communicated with his Father, in advance of his Kingdom rule. To let his know that his Son would soon establish the Kingdom after his death, resurrection and ascension into heaven. It was the primary goal of his ministry.

Adding in an expression of Isaiah 9:6 if it is original, into this prayer, or mix, only causes confusion. It does not mean that Christ was giving a prayer about himself and to himself.

If the 'Eternal Father' is original in Isaiah 9:6, it has to do with Christ being the 1st new creation/birth from the dead of God, to immortality. He became the father of it, and there's no one else that could for(ever) be this same father figure. He is the father of many to follow him into an immortal state of being.

And it's the Father in heaven who Christ is speaking to, not Christ being in heaven in the future.

And that the Kingdom was already established, in the past, and we are today still living in this symbolic 1000 year of Kingdom maturity and expansion in the hearts of the people living on the earth, in each generation.

The Father God's will shall be done in the process of today's ongoing Kingdom rule by Christ, by genuine believers on the earth, as God's will then is done in sync with heavenly bodies and heaven's oversight.

Your approach is correct if you think like a Jehovah's Witness and use the N.W.T. As long as a person believes that Jesus is not Jehovah, a created being, and the Holy Spirit is the breath of the Father, I would have to agree with you.

But I use the K.J.B. and would prefer most any other Bible or the N.I.V., or one that uses a similar text. But in my heart, and not because I have taken the advice of anyone or am siding with any particular denomination, and because I have done my own (IN Depth) research on the history of the King James Bible, the N.W.T., and the N.I.V which would take under its wing 99% of all other Bibles, the K.J.B. is superior to them all. And because that is the case, here are the reasons I have to disagree with your conclusions.

We can begin with the verse you referred to. Isaiah 9:6. It is correct: Why? The proof of its authenticity can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Jesus is, The mighty God, The everlasting Rather, and the Prince of Peace," Isaiah 9:6.

John 1:1, "And the Word was God." With verse 14, "The Word was made Flesh." That would be Jesus.

1 Timothy 3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh." That would be Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:16, "speaking of Jesus, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,"

Hebrews 1:8, The Father in heaven said the following concerning his beloved Son, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever:" The Father calls his Son God, then said, "Your throne is forever and ever:"

Revelation 1:8, Jesus' own words call himself "the Almighty."

Thomas is with Jesus, puts his hand in the wound in his side and said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God."

And I can go on. Now what the Watchtower had to do was change the wording or certain words in each of the above verses. The Witnesses used the K.J.B. until 1971 and have had three more copyrights since then, four all-toll.

I would challenge any Witness to make the same (honest) examinations that I made concerning the N.W.T. and the King James Bible. I don't mean a brush-over, but an intense investigation of your own, no outside interference. Go to any library, they have the books needed for the investigation. That's what I did. Examine their history, their founders, the men who did the translating, and their credentials. Take a close look at the Arian heresy of 325 A.D. and then follow its history right to the door of the Watchtower. Then examine the 1942 edition of the Watchtower published Diaglott, especially John 1:1. If you have an honest interest in your eternity, you would be a K.J.B. user because it is God's Word.

Anyway, thanks for your response.

You really are not addressing the OP of the Lord's Prayer I see. You have another area of interest that is weighing on your mind I see. You want to impress upon me your theology over the topic at at-hand.

I do not agree that a JW only, if they even do, only thinks of the Lord's Prayer using my approach or its understanding. In fact I would say this subject has more to do with understanding scripture, context and not what one's theology and doctrines dictate.

And now what impact has a version or versions of the Bible to do with the understanding of the Lords' Prayer, as written down, that are very similar, in any version of the Bible?

And now you have completely left the thread subject to list certain only-one-verse scripture for what? To say you are a Trinitarian I expect, as my words said indicate otherwise? Well then thank you for telling me that...

And what do you know of historical Arian and all his doctrines and beliefs? I frankly know of a few of his beliefs only.

And for future reference, I do not like or do labels or labelling anyone in searching and knowing the truth in the holy writ. It kills off potential edifying discussions from the get-go.

If you are curious then and want to know what type of labels I might be close to or resemble in SOME parts...they would encompass being ...a strict Monotheist, Biblical Unitarian, a type of neo-preterist and a so-called A-millennialist.

If you want to discuss your listed scripture, then please let me know.

PS. I'm still get used to posting on this forum....I hope this post fires away as I expect it..

///Great Day and thanks for your post!

Again, thanks for your comments: Let me break this down one comment at a time.
You wrote, “It was a prayer to Christ's Father, who is God and to those of the people of God that would be in attendance at Pentecost and beyond, like the disciples.”

Jesus was speaking to his disciples, all Jews. There was no New Testament at the time, and He had not returned to glory. And any references Isaiah made would have to concern Jewish thought and lie within the boundaries of the Law.

Concerning the prophet, Isaiah. He was a Jew, bound by the law. We know he believed in one God, Jehovah. When he wrote in Isaiah 9:6, that the expected Messiah would be the mighty God, and the everlasting Father,” was he declaring a second God by calling the coming Christ “God, and Father?”

If Isaiah was declaring a second God and a second Father, according to the law, he would have been committing blasphemy. The punishment for blasphemy was to be taken outside the city and stoned to death. And because he was not stoned, and his comments concerned “The child to be born and the Son to be given,” Isaiah was declaring Jesus as God and Father.

The disciples' satisfaction of learning how to pray was to learn from the everlasting Father himself. So, was Jesus teaching them how to pray to him when he returned to glory so that they would not be praying in vain?

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. So, who better to teach the disciples than the author himself? So, as King of Kings, he draws up this petition of prayer allowing it to be presented to himself. This was a common practice, and the people understood it. We may not, but they did.

The disciples said, “Lord teach us how to pray,” this prayer would include all believers. True believers have a strong love for God, and in the strictest sense, God loves us. Before Jesus returned to heaven he asked Peter three times, “Do you love me?” He did not say “Do you love my father.”

By acknowledging love for Jesus, believers would also be acknowledging their love for His Father. Simply put “It’s a chain of command.” I learned all about the chain of command in the Marines. It’s strict, and to break it, punishment followed.

You wrote, “To let him know that his Son would soon establish the Kingdom after his death, resurrection and ascension into heaven. It was the primary goal of his ministry.

I agree.

You wrote, “If the 'Eternal Father' is original in Isaiah 9:6, it has to do with Christ being the 1st new creation/birth from the dead of God, to immortality.”

I have no idea where your comment “the 1st new creation/birth from the dead of God, to immortality” can be found in the Scriptures. It does not exist, unless certain words are misunderstood, misrepresented or changed.

You wrote, “And that the Kingdom was already established,”

True, but the King, Jesus Christ, has not taken his kingdom yet, but one day soon our (King and High Priest) will return, and he will take his kingdom.
Jesus is speaking to the chief priests and elders. He said in Matthew 21:43, “I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” Verse 45, When the chief priests and Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spoke of them.”

You wrote, “in the past, and we are today still living in this symbolic 1000 year of Kingdom maturity and expansion in the hearts of the people living on the earth, in each generation.”

“If what you claim is true, when did this 1000 symbolic year reign begin? And do you think the number 1000 is also symbolic?

[APAK]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #5]

Alright, you seem to be very interested in Isaiah 9:6 regarding the Lord's Prayer. I don't get it. Unless you are deliberately trying to confuse the Prayer and change the identities noted within and about the Prayer.

So, I will just comment on Isaiah 9:6 for the moment as an offtrack sidebar discussion, for you, and what it most probably means. And it does not alter the Lord's Prayer subjects at all.

(Isa 9:6)  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(Isa 9:7)  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.(KJV)

The context of these two verses of Isaiah 9:6-7, is about the future King of the throne of David. Judah’s current enemies were to the North, Israel and Assyria.

The Father bestowed Jesus upon the House of Judah first, then to all nations. He was given to mankind, the spiritual Israel, and still many that do not understand scripture persist in saying the son of God was God.

After his resurrection from death, the Son of God shall have all authority on the earth and in heaven. He shall be called the blessed, teacher and mediator, the mighty god and the eternal father of the new ages, and the prince of peace.

‘Mighty God’ should be translated as ‘mighty warrior’ or ‘great one.’ The word for God here is 'El.' It means a superior leader as a warrior in combat.

This phrase "El gib(b)or" is also used in Ezekiel 32:21 and translated "the mighty chiefs". One of the definitions under "El" is mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes and would seem more fitting since the very next verse says "Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David an over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it"

Where in scripture had Jesus been called the everlasting Father? Nowhere.

‘Everlasting Father’ should be translated as the eternal father, of the future ages to come since his ascension into heaven. Jesus became the key agent of eternal life. Jesus replaced the original and temporal father, also a Son of God, as he, the 1st Adam, who returned to the ‘dust.’ Jesus purchased sinful mankind and became their new permanent father of future ages as the 2nd and last Adam. He became immortal and the gateway for all others to enter in.

(Col 1:18)  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.(KJV)

You said you never heard of any scripture like Col 1:18. Well here it is...the 1st from the dead, reborn to new life, to immorality...and others to follow...
Jesus is the everlasting or only father of this miraculous event, to be raised to new life from being dead.

Acts 17:30-31 says that YHWH has appointed a man to judge the world that aligns perfectly with the verses of Isaiah 9:6 and 7

The last part of verse 7 says the zeal of the LORD Almighty will produce this child who will accomplish or be all these things said in these verses. The LORD Almighty will use his Holy Spirit to create this new Son. This is another validation that the LORD is the only God, the only creator, and it is ridiculous and impossible for his created Son to be him as well.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #5]

Alright, you seem to be very interested in Isaiah 9:6 regarding the Lord's Prayer. I don't get it. Unless you are deliberately trying to confuse the Prayer and change the identities noted within and about the Prayer.

So, I will just comment on Isaiah 9:6 for the moment as an offtrack sidebar discussion, for you, and what it most probably means. And it does not alter the Lord's Prayer subjects at all.

(Isa 9:6)  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(Isa 9:7)  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.(KJV)

The context of these two verses of Isaiah 9:6-7, is about the future King of the throne of David. Judah’s current enemies were to the North, Israel and Assyria.

The Father bestowed Jesus upon the House of Judah first, then to all nations. He was given to mankind, the spiritual Israel, and still many that do not understand scripture persist in saying the son of God was God.

After his resurrection from death, the Son of God shall have all authority on the earth and in heaven. He shall be called the blessed, teacher and mediator, the mighty god and the eternal father of the new ages, and the prince of peace.

‘Mighty God’ should be translated as ‘mighty warrior’ or ‘great one.’ The word for God here is 'El.' It means a superior leader as a warrior in combat.

This phrase "El gib(b)or" is also used in Ezekiel 32:21 and translated "the mighty chiefs". One of the definitions under "El" is mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes and would seem more fitting since the very next verse says "Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David an over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it"

Where in scripture had Jesus been called the everlasting Father? Nowhere.

‘Everlasting Father’ should be translated as the eternal father, of the future ages to come since his ascension into heaven. Jesus became the key agent of eternal life. Jesus replaced the original and temporal father, also a Son of God, as he, the 1st Adam, who returned to the ‘dust.’ Jesus purchased sinful mankind and became their new permanent father of future ages as the 2nd and last Adam. He became immortal and the gateway for all others to enter in.

(Col 1:18)  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.(KJV)

You said you never heard of any scripture like Col 1:18. Well here it is...the 1st from the dead, reborn to new life, to immorality...and others to follow...
Jesus is the everlasting or only father of this miraculous event, to be raised to new life from being dead.

Acts 17:30-31 says that YHWH has appointed a man to judge the world that aligns perfectly with the verses of Isaiah 9:6 and 7

The last part of verse 7 says the zeal of the LORD Almighty will produce this child who will accomplish or be all these things said in these verses. The LORD Almighty will use his Holy Spirit to create this new Son. This is another validation that the LORD is the only God, the only creator, and it is ridiculous and impossible for his created Son to be him as well.

I am looking at your post; here is what I come away with. It appears you are wiser than the 48 + 10 theologians who translated the K.J.B. And wiser than the tens of thousands of translators who followed them over the past 400 + years. I don't think so, I may be wrong, so tell me what your background is in the languages of ancient Hebrew, and ancient Greek. Tell me what ancient documents you have personally translated and tell me what your background is in ancient history.

[APAK]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #5]

Alright, you seem to be very interested in Isaiah 9:6 regarding the Lord's Prayer. I don't get it. Unless you are deliberately trying to confuse the Prayer and change the identities noted within and about the Prayer.

So, I will just comment on Isaiah 9:6 for the moment as an offtrack sidebar discussion, for you, and what it most probably means. And it does not alter the Lord's Prayer subjects at all.

(Isa 9:6)  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(Isa 9:7)  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.(KJV)

The context of these two verses of Isaiah 9:6-7, is about the future King of the throne of David. Judah’s current enemies were to the North, Israel and Assyria.

The Father bestowed Jesus upon the House of Judah first, then to all nations. He was given to mankind, the spiritual Israel, and still many that do not understand scripture persist in saying the son of God was God.

After his resurrection from death, the Son of God shall have all authority on the earth and in heaven. He shall be called the blessed, teacher and mediator, the mighty god and the eternal father of the new ages, and the prince of peace.

‘Mighty God’ should be translated as ‘mighty warrior’ or ‘great one.’ The word for God here is 'El.' It means a superior leader as a warrior in combat.

This phrase "El gib(b)or" is also used in Ezekiel 32:21 and translated "the mighty chiefs". One of the definitions under "El" is mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes and would seem more fitting since the very next verse says "Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David an over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it"

Where in scripture had Jesus been called the everlasting Father? Nowhere.

‘Everlasting Father’ should be translated as the eternal father, of the future ages to come since his ascension into heaven. Jesus became the key agent of eternal life. Jesus replaced the original and temporal father, also a Son of God, as he, the 1st Adam, who returned to the ‘dust.’ Jesus purchased sinful mankind and became their new permanent father of future ages as the 2nd and last Adam. He became immortal and the gateway for all others to enter in.

(Col 1:18)  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.(KJV)

You said you never heard of any scripture like Col 1:18. Well here it is...the 1st from the dead, reborn to new life, to immorality...and others to follow...
Jesus is the everlasting or only father of this miraculous event, to be raised to new life from being dead.

Acts 17:30-31 says that YHWH has appointed a man to judge the world that aligns perfectly with the verses of Isaiah 9:6 and 7

The last part of verse 7 says the zeal of the LORD Almighty will produce this child who will accomplish or be all these things said in these verses. The LORD Almighty will use his Holy Spirit to create this new Son. This is another validation that the LORD is the only God, the only creator, and it is ridiculous and impossible for his created Son to be him as well.

I am looking at your post; here is what I come away with. It appears you are wiser than the 48 + 10 theologians who translated the K.J.B. And wiser than the tens of thousands of translators who followed them over the past 400 + years. I don't think so, I may be wrong, so tell me what your background is in the languages of ancient Hebrew, and ancient Greek. Tell me what ancient documents you have personally translated and tell me what your background is in ancient history.

I gather your mind is set on human wisdom and knowledge to provide answers to supernatural and inspired words. You neglected the most important credential in understanding and knowing the holy writ, the author of it, the Spirit of God.

To be inspired by the Spirit itself, of God himself, is a glorious experience, that brings confidence, and brings truth to light. When this light shines brightly, it blinds many, and they scurry to their natural refuge, to the darkness of unenlightenment back into their wickedness of their human hearts. It cannot be trusted for truth.

I would rather stick to your OP than de-rail it with a sidebar of one of the magnitude you are now entertaining. Wouldn't you agree?

[placebofactor]

[Replying to APAK in post #8]

The disciples said to Jesus, "Lord, teach us to pray." Jesus said to his disciples, "When you pray, say, our Father which art in Heaven Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; --- lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Isaiah 9:6 reveals to us that Jesus is our everlasting Father. So, what Jesus was telling his disciples, when you pray, pray to me, I am your everlasting Father, your mediator between you and my Father.

Now, is there another verse to support the idea that we are to pray to Jesus because he is, as Isaiah wrote, our "everlasting Father?"

John 14:13-14, At the last supper, Jesus said to his disciples, "Whatsoever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

[APAK]

[Replying to APAK in post #8]

The disciples said to Jesus, "Lord, teach us to pray." Jesus said to his disciples, "When you pray, say, our Father which art in Heaven Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; --- lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Isaiah 9:6 reveals to us that Jesus is our everlasting Father. So, what Jesus was telling his disciples, when you pray, pray to me, I am your everlasting Father, your mediator between you and my Father.

Now, is there another verse to support the idea that we are to pray to Jesus because he is, as Isaiah wrote, our "everlasting Father?"

John 14:13-14, At the last supper, Jesus said to his disciples, "Whatsoever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

I believe I mentioned this to you before concerning Isaiah 9:6 and the 'everlasting' father.

‘Everlasting Father’ should be translated as the eternal father, of the future ages to come since his ascension into heaven. Jesus became the key agent of eternal life. Jesus replaced the original and temporal father, also a Son of God, as he, the 1st Adam, returned to the ‘dust.’ Jesus purchased sinful mankind and became their new permanent father of future ages as the 2nd and last Adam. He became immortal and the gateway for all others to enter in. Jesus became the father, the forerunner for us as new creatures in the spiritual Kingdom of God that is still expanding today.

And there is no verse where we are told to pray to Jesus, directly, without any intention of its purpose for his and our Father, who is God. Not saying we cannot speak to Jesus anytime we want of course.

Now doing something or praying in Jesus' name is considering the Son of God and his works, and his new founded authority and standing with God, that allows us to even pray to the Father, God.