God didn't keep his words

[Compassionist]

In Genesis 2:16 and 17 the Bible (New International Version) says:
And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

If after eating the forbidden fruits, Adam and Eve died just as God had said, then that would have been just and consistent with God's Words. However, after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruits, instead of just Adam and Eve just dying:
1. God evicted them from Eden.
2. God punished Eve and all her daughters (an estimated 54 billion and counting) with painful childbirths.
3. God evicted all the other species from Eden, too, and makes herbivores, parasites, carnivores and omnivores instead of making all the species non-consumers.
4. God punished humans with having to toil to survive.
5. God commanded humans to reproduce which leads to more suffering and death. Ruling over other creatures causes suffering and death to those creatures, too. "God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”" - Genesis 1:28, The Bible (NIV)

These acts are cruel and unjust and totally inconsistent with what God had said to Adam and Eve which was they would just die if they ate the forbidden fruits. God didn't keep his words to Adam and Eve.

I didn't ask to come into existence. No living thing does. I would have preferred it if I never existed. If God is real and actually did the things the Bible claims, then these cruel, unjust and inconsistent actions make the Biblical God evil.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #1]

What makes you think that what God said would happen didn’t happen? It seems to me that the principle of charity should cause us to give the author the benefit of the doubt, that they didn’t just write an incoherent or contradictory story.

So why think that the death spoken of doesn’t include being evicted from the edenic environment, causing relationship problems between humans with God, each other, and the world?

Why think that being a “consumer” is wrong?

Why view the results as extra punishments rather than natural consequences?

Why think all suffering and death is unjust or unloving?

[1213]

In Genesis 2:16 and 17 the Bible (New International Version) says:
And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

More accurate translation says "dying thou dost die", which means, by death they shall die. This "life" seems to be called death in the Bible. And in a way it is logical, after all, people lost their life with God that day. But, death is a slow process, for us it takes about 80 years to die.

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Gen. 2:17 (Young's literal)

1. God evicted them from Eden.
2. God punished eve and all her daughters (an estimated 54 billion and counting) with painful childbirths.
3. God evicted all the other species from Eden, too, and makes herbivores, parasites, carnivores and omnivores instead of making all the species non-consumers.
4. God punished humans with having to toil to survive.
5. God commanded humans to reproduce which leads to more suffering and death. Ruling over other creatures causes suffering and death to those creatures, too. "God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”" - Genesis 1:28, The Bible (NIV)

1. That is true. But, people have a chance to get back to God, if they are or become righteous.
2. "I will greatly increase your sorrow and your conception; you shall bear sons in sorrow" was said only to Eve, not to every woman. And also, what does it mean, God making it painful, or God not making it less painful. It could be that, if they would have been loyal to God and remained in the garden, it would not have been painful, because of the place and God. But because they rejected God, they also rejected the good things God could have offered.
3. Where is that said in the Bible?
4. It is irrational to expect God to take care, if one has just rejected God.
5. It leads also to good things. But, I agree that it is sad that people don't live by God's rules.

These acts are cruel and unjust and totally inconsistent with what God had said...

In your opinion. I don't think God is cruel, unjust or inconsistent.

I would have preferred it if I never existed.

Would you have wanted to live in a perfect place that has no suffering?

[Difflugia]

More accurate translation says "dying thou dost die", which means, by death they shall die. This "life" seems to be called death in the Bible. And in a way it is logical, after all, people lost their life with God that day. But, death is a slow process, for us it takes about 80 years to die.

Your claim is pure nonsense. This is an extremely common and well-known Hebrew idiom. When an infinitive verb ("dying") appears with the finite of the same verb ("you die"), it is regarded as an intensifier, emphasizing the assurance that the event described is certain to happen. From Gesenius §113, emphasis in the original:

The infinitive absolute used before the verb to strengthen the verbal idea, i.e. to emphasize in this way either the certainty (especially in the case of threats) or the forcibleness and completeness of an occurrence. In English, such an infinitive is mostly expressed by a corresponding adverb, but sometimes merely by putting greater stress on the verb;

He then offers a list of examples, including the "dying, you die" phrase. He renders it, "thou shalt surely die."

God therefore told the man that, "on they day that you eat from it, you will certainly die." Your "more accurate translation" and explanation simply ignore one of the most settled rules of Hebrew grammar. Unless you can provide a source for your claim, we'll have to assume that you just made it up and are trying to bluff your way through the discussion.

You can read Gesenius' explanation at archive.org.

[Compassionist]

More accurate translation says "dying thou dost die", which means, by death they shall die. This "life" seems to be called death in the Bible. And in a way it is logical, after all, people lost their life with God that day. But, death is a slow process, for us it takes about 80 years to die.

Your claim is pure nonsense. This is an extremely common and well-known Hebrew idiom. When an infinitive verb ("dying") appears with the finite of the same verb ("you die"), it is regarded as an intensifier, emphasizing the assurance that the event described is certain to happen. From Gesenius §113, emphasis in the original:

The infinitive absolute used before the verb to strengthen the verbal idea, i.e. to emphasize in this way either the certainty (especially in the case of threats) or the forcibleness and completeness of an occurrence. In English, such an infinitive is mostly expressed by a corresponding adverb, but sometimes merely by putting greater stress on the verb;

He then offers a list of examples, including the "dying, you die" phrase. He renders it, "thou shalt surely die."

God therefore told the man that, "on they day that you eat from it, you will certainly die." Your "more accurate translation" and explanation simply ignore one of the most settled rules of Hebrew grammar. Unless you can provide a source for your claim, we'll have to assume that you just made it up and are trying to bluff your way through the discussion.

You can read Gesenius' explanation at archive.org.

I agree with you. Thank you for your reply.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #1]

What makes you think that what God said would happen didn’t happen? It seems to me that the principle of charity should cause us to give the author the benefit of the doubt, that they didn’t just write an incoherent or contradictory story.

So why think that the death spoken of doesn’t include being evicted from the edenic environment, causing relationship problems between humans with God, each other, and the world?

Why think that being a “consumer” is wrong?

Why view the results as extra punishments rather than natural consequences?

Why think all suffering and death is unjust or unloving?

As I have listed in my original post, God did lots of cruel and unjust things instead of doing ONLY what he said he would do i.e. just Adam and Eve dying.

Please see: https://climatehealers.org/the-science/ ... tion-paper and also see: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1 ... adb7f2/pdf

Organisms consuming causes suffering and death to other organisms. That's why consuming is wrong.

God is allegedly the creator of the universe so everything that happens in the universe is God's doing. God is omniculpable.

Suffering and death are unjust and unloving compared to being forever happy, and also compared to never existing.

[Compassionist]

In Genesis 2:16 and 17 the Bible (New International Version) says:
And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

More accurate translation says "dying thou dost die", which means, by death they shall die. This "life" seems to be called death in the Bible. And in a way it is logical, after all, people lost their life with God that day. But, death is a slow process, for us it takes about 80 years to die.

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Gen. 2:17 (Young's literal)

1. God evicted them from Eden.
2. God punished eve and all her daughters (an estimated 54 billion and counting) with painful childbirths.
3. God evicted all the other species from Eden, too, and makes herbivores, parasites, carnivores and omnivores instead of making all the species non-consumers.
4. God punished humans with having to toil to survive.
5. God commanded humans to reproduce which leads to more suffering and death. Ruling over other creatures causes suffering and death to those creatures, too. "God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”" - Genesis 1:28, The Bible (NIV)

1. That is true. But, people have a chance to get back to God, if they are or become righteous.
2. "I will greatly increase your sorrow and your conception; you shall bear sons in sorrow" was said only to Eve, not to every woman. And also, what does it mean, God making it painful, or God not making it less painful. It could be that, if they would have been loyal to God and remained in the garden, it would not have been painful, because of the place and God. But because they rejected God, they also rejected the good things God could have offered.
3. Where is that said in the Bible?
4. It is irrational to expect God to take care, if one has just rejected God.
5. It leads also to good things. But, I agree that it is sad that people don't live by God's rules.

These acts are cruel and unjust and totally inconsistent with what God had said...

In your opinion. I don't think God is cruel, unjust or inconsistent.

I would have preferred it if I never existed.

Would you have wanted to live in a perfect place that has no suffering?

You are entitled to your opinions. I never said that everyone has to agree with me. Please note that not all opinions are equal. Some opinions are correct and others are incorrect. I am convinced that my opinions about the Biblical God are correct and your opinions about the Biblical God are incorrect.

I would have preferred never existing. I did not ask for existence. I did not consent to existing.

[The Tanager]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #6]

Yes, you've claimed God did more than what he said would happen, but you haven't shown why that claim should be accepted as true. Yes, if you are right here, then I agree there is a problem, but why should we agree with your interpretation that God meant the only thing that would happen is a physical death for Adam and Eve?

And, yes, consumption causes the suffering and death of others. You are claiming that is wrong, but why do you think that? Not everyone agrees, so let's see where the divergence truly is so that we can best reason about this issue. What principle underscores this conclusion of yours? That comfort is the highest good? Something else?

What is missed, if we don't have the capacity to affect others for good and bad?

[Compassionist]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #6]

Yes, you've claimed God did more than what he said would happen, but you haven't shown why that claim should be accepted as true. Yes, if you are right here, then I agree there is a problem, but why should we agree with your interpretation that God meant the only thing that would happen is a physical death for Adam and Eve?

And, yes, consumption causes the suffering and death of others. You are claiming that is wrong, but why do you think that? Not everyone agrees, so let's see where the divergence truly is so that we can best reason about this issue. What principle underscores this conclusion of yours? That comfort is the highest good? Something else?

What is missed, if we don't have the capacity to affect others for good and bad?

This verse: “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” does not equal to the following actions because the following actions caused the suffering and deaths of trillions of sentient organisms who didn't deserve to suffer and die. God should have clearly stated to Adam and Eve that he would do the five things I have listed.

1. God evicted them from Eden.
2. God punished Eve and all her daughters (an estimated 54 billion and counting) with painful childbirths.
3. God evicted all the other species from Eden, too, and makes herbivores, parasites, carnivores and omnivores instead of making all the species non-consumers.
4. God punished humans with having to toil to survive.
5. God commanded humans to reproduce which leads to more suffering and death. Ruling over other creatures causes suffering and death to those creatures, too. "God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”" - Genesis 1:28, The Bible (NIV)

[bjs1]

I would have preferred it if I never existed.

I find this very difficult to believe, given the fact that you are currently choosing to continue existing.

(I feel nervous writing that. No matter how remote, there is always the possibility that you would prefer it if you never existed and you are not just trying to justify yourself. If you actually mean what you wrote, and it is not just a line to win points in a debate, then please dial 988 for the suicide and crisis hotline.)