And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)
How exactly are these to be reconciled?
Did he or didn't he?
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Did he or didn't he?
Post #1"There is more room for a god in science than there is for no god in religious faith."
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Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #2He first enquired and later didn't.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Mon May 12, 2025 10:41 am And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her.
(1 Samuel 28:6-7)
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord
(1Chronicles 10:13-14)
How exactly are these to be reconciled?
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Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #3[Replying to 1213 in post #2]
And if he were given an answer when he enquired, he wouldn't have to enquire again "later" and so there would be no legitimate punishment for not doing so.
Then why does the chronicler simply say that he "enquired not"?He first enquired and later didn't.
And if he were given an answer when he enquired, he wouldn't have to enquire again "later" and so there would be no legitimate punishment for not doing so.
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Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #4Because at that time he didn't so so.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Wed May 14, 2025 12:16 am [Replying to 1213 in post #2]
Then why does the chronicler simply say that he "enquired not"?He first enquired and later didn't.
The punishment was for "his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it". And he should not have done that in any case.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Wed May 14, 2025 12:16 amAnd if he were given an answer when he enquired, he wouldn't have to enquire again "later" and so there would be no legitimate punishment for not doing so.
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Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #5[Replying to 1213 in post #4]
Samuel says that Saul did enquire of Jehovah, which would mean that the chronicler was bearing false witness against Saul [or that he was making a false statement in ignorance, either of which would rule out divine inspiration].
According to the chronicler, Saul was punished for "his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord".The punishment was for "his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it". And he should not have done that in any case.
Samuel says that Saul did enquire of Jehovah, which would mean that the chronicler was bearing false witness against Saul [or that he was making a false statement in ignorance, either of which would rule out divine inspiration].
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Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #6Sorry, i disagree with you. It is possible they are both true. when Saul was young, he did enquire of Jehovah. But later he rejected god and did not enquire of Jehovah, when he was "asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit".Athetotheist wrote: ↑Thu May 15, 2025 1:09 am [Replying to 1213 in post #4]
According to the chronicler, Saul was punished for "his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; and enquired not of the Lord".The punishment was for "his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it". And he should not have done that in any case.
Samuel says that Saul did enquire of Jehovah, which would mean that the chronicler was bearing false witness against Saul [or that he was making a false statement in ignorance, either of which would rule out divine inspiration].
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Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #7[Replying to 1213 in post #6]
The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”
“There is one in Endor,” they said.
So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”
But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”
(1 Samuel 28:3-9)
Samuel makes it clear that Saul enquires of Jehovah because he is afraid when he sees the Philistine army. This is after he expels the mediums and spiritists from the land, and he goes to a wise woman because he gets no answer from Jehovah. This is confirmed in his appeal to Samuel in verse 15:
“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”
This makes the chronicler's charge against Saul false.
Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritists from the land.Sorry, i disagree with you. It is possible they are both true. when Saul was young, he did enquire of Jehovah. But later he rejected god and did not enquire of Jehovah, when he was "asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit".
The Philistines assembled and came and set up camp at Shunem, while Saul gathered all Israel and set up camp at Gilboa. When Saul saw the Philistine army, he was afraid; terror filled his heart. He inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets. Saul then said to his attendants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her.”
“There is one in Endor,” they said.
So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. “Consult a spirit for me,” he said, “and bring up for me the one I name.”
But the woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”
(1 Samuel 28:3-9)
Samuel makes it clear that Saul enquires of Jehovah because he is afraid when he sees the Philistine army. This is after he expels the mediums and spiritists from the land, and he goes to a wise woman because he gets no answer from Jehovah. This is confirmed in his appeal to Samuel in verse 15:
“I am in great distress,” Saul said. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.”
This makes the chronicler's charge against Saul false.
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Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #8I don't think so. It can be that Saul stopped inquiring God when he didn't get answers.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Fri May 16, 2025 12:28 am ...
This makes the chronicler's charge against Saul false.
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Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #9[Replying to 1213 in post #8]
Yes, that's exactly what the text says happens. The point is that Saul goes to the witch because he has gotten no answer to his inquiries of Jehovah. The chronicler accuses Saul of not seeking an answer from Jehovah, and the text of Samuel clearly refutes that accusation.I don't think so. It can be that Saul stopped inquiring God when he didn't get answers.
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Re: Did he or didn't he?
Post #10Sorry, I don't think that is true. Telling what someone did earlier doesn't mean that the person did so in the end also.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 1:20 pm ...The chronicler accuses Saul of not seeking an answer from Jehovah, and the text of Samuel clearly refutes that accusation.
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