Where's the crime?

[Athetotheist]

While they were in the wilderness, the Israelites found a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. Then the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
(Numbers 15:32-35)

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath
(Mark 2:27)

Why would a deity who made a sabbath for man and not man for a sabbath command the execution of a man for gathering sticks on a sabbath?

[1213]

While they were in the wilderness, the Israelites found a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. Then the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
(Numbers 15:32-35)

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath
(Mark 2:27)

Why would a deity who made a sabbath for man and not man for a sabbath command the execution of a man for gathering sticks on a sabbath?

I believe all God's judgements are based on, is person righteous or not and that the wage of sin is death, because of these:

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

In the case of stick picking, it was not clear to the people had the person committed sin, which would be to reject God and work on the sabbath. Because God's judgement was death, I believe in this case the man was working, which showed he didn't care about God and his people, which showed he is not righteous.

I don't think it was only about gathering sticks.

[JehovahsWitness]

THE CRIME

A Crime can be found where a law is broken; A law was broken and therein was the crime. The nation (including the man) had agreed to keep God's law; and the law was to refrain from working on the Sabbath. If one does not agree with the law of the nation with whom one lives one is usually free to leave (he certainly was). In the absence of that if one breaks the law then punishment is a logical consequence. He broke the law and was subject to punishment.


THE HARM

As for where is the "harm", the "harm" was in deliberately expressing distain for the God of the nation and disrespect for his demands. The sabbath law was beneficial for the people, protecting them from being overworked and giving them time for spiritual matters. As well as disrespecting God, breaking the Sabbath translated as disrespect towards the other people in the community ; undermining the very fabric which held them together.

NATIONAL SECURITY

It's also worth noting that biblically, the nation of Israel was a "theocracy" with God as its ultimate king. God cannot deal with that which is unclean and deliberate disregard for his standards could have resulted in his withdrawing his protection. They were not militarily strong enough without divine help to survive as a nation, so keeping God's laws became a matter of the nations security and future survival. Deliberately compromising "national security" is often viewed as "treason" since it endangers the lives of all the men, women and children of that nation.

JW

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

Because God's judgement was death, I believe in this case the man was working, which showed he didn't care about God and his people, which showed he is not righteous.

John 8:2-5, paraphrased----

At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a man caught gathering sticks on the Sabbath. They made him stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this man was caught in the act of gathering sticks on the Sabbath. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such men. Now what do you say?”

What would he have said?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #3]

As for where is the "harm", the "harm" was in deliberately expressing distain for the God of the nation and disrespect for his demands.

But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
(Ezekiel 18:21-23)

The stick-gathering man isn't even given a chance to repent.

It's also worth noting that biblically, the nation of Israel was a "theocracy" with God as its ultimate king. God cannot deal with that which is unclean and deliberate disregard for his standards could have resulted in his withdrawing his protection.

A certain blogger noted the following:

Greek mythology has many stories of the gods punishing mortals. After Actaeon stumbled upon Artemis bathing and saw her naked, the goddess turned him into a stag, and his hounds tore him apart. For her affair with Zeus, Hera punished Leto by ordering all the lands to shun her and prolonging her childbirth labour. After Odysseus angered Poseidon, the god of the sea delayed his return home from Troy for ten years. Apollo cursed his prophetess Cassandra so that nobody would believe her after she refused him sexual favours. In the Afro-Cuban religion Lukumi, there is a broad belief that we have an obligation to the orishas and other spirits and they can be generous and vengeful. Divine retribution may also be nontheistic in the form of karma.
https://share.google/GAu0bCNaeoiZkKzol

Since divine wrath and retribution have been present in pagan and Abrahamic religions, which are we to measure against the other?

They were not militarily strong enough without divine help to survive as a nation, so keeping God's laws became a matter of the nations security and future survival. Deliberately compromising "national security" is often viewed as "treason" since it endangers the lives of all the men, women and children of that nation.

So Jehovah, who had delivered them from Egypt, couldn't protect them until they were militarily strong enough to protect themselves? He certainly should be protecting them until they're strong enough, so "national security" can hardly be invoked.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

Because God's judgement was death, I believe in this case the man was working, which showed he didn't care about God and his people, which showed he is not righteous.

John 8:2-5, paraphrased----

At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a man caught gathering sticks on the Sabbath. They made him stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this man was caught in the act of gathering sticks on the Sabbath. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such men. Now what do you say?”

What would he have said?

I believe he would have said: "The law doesn't really say you must stone a person for gathering sticks".

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #6]

I believe he would have said: "The law doesn't really say you must stone a person for gathering sticks".

Then he would have gotten it wrong. According to the text, the man is executed for gathering sticks on the Sabbath. But the Sabbath is supposed to have been made for man and not vice-versa.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #6]

I believe he would have said: "The law doesn't really say you must stone a person for gathering sticks".

Then he would have gotten it wrong. According to the text, the man is executed for gathering sticks on the Sabbath. ...

No, according to the text, man who gathered sticks was executed, but it is not said the reason was gathering sticks. The law says, don't work on sabbath day, which means, if person gathering sticks was executed, he was probably working, which is why the judgment. But, the people didn't know surely was the person working, therefore they asked from God.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #8]

No, according to the text, man who gathered sticks was executed, but it is not said the reason was gathering sticks. The law says, don't work on sabbath day, which means, if person gathering sticks was executed, he was probably working, which is why the judgment.

Gathering sticks was the work he was doing.

But, the people didn't know surely was the person working, therefore they asked from God.

"And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him."

They don't detain him because they don't know if he was working. They detain him because they don't know what the punishment should be for the work of gathering sticks.

[1213]

Gathering sticks was the work he was doing.

Perhaps, but gathering sticks is not necessary always work. Some could just gather sticks for fun.

And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.[/i]"

They don't detain him because they don't know if he was working. They detain him because they don't know what the punishment should be for the work of gathering sticks.

Or, because they did not know was he working.

But, it is interesting, if you think people who work on sabbath day should be killed according to the Bible. That would mean all the guards and priests that did they work on sabbath day should be killed.