Body, Mind and Soul

[jcrawford]

I am currently working on developing a comprehensive theory of cognition which will account for the existence of man's body, mind and soul, and hereby invite all other posters to reasonably critique or otherwise constructively contribute to the further development of the theory.

It should be presumed and understood from the outset that this scientific experiment is both a scientific and religious work in progress and that any successful development of this theory by current posters will be duly accredited to all those who make reasonable contributions to it's development.

Here is a minimalist account of the theory developed so far by yours truly:


COGNITIVE THEORY of BODY, MIND & SOUL.
by
John Crawford


Initial Premises, Presuppositions and Definitions:

1 BODY consists of physically perceivable sensations of material objects and physical forces.

2 MIND consists of self-conscious cognitive mental processes which intermediate between Body and Soul.

3 SOUL is the essence of self, ego, personality, memory and conscious self-awareness of existence.


Self-evident Postulate and Justification
for Theoretical Premises:

I know (cognize) that I have a brain and nervous system within my body, but have no observable, experiential, testable or scientific way of knowing that my brain or nervous system are capable of knowing anything in the sense that it may be classified as mental, cognitive or self-conscious knowledge.


Further Expositions on, and definitions of,
the Nature, Character, Being, Structure and Essence
of Body, Mind and Soul.


1. BODY:

All physical phenomena which may be reasonably and rationally categorized and classified as being part of the universe which physicists have defined as consisting of material force and mass.


2. MIND

All that which is strictly intellectual, cognitive, conceptual and mental in the realm of consciousness and self-awareness.

Eg: ideas, beliefs, theories, thoughts and knowledge.


3. SOUL

All which pertains to self-consciousness and awareness of self, ego, personhood, individual identity and spiritual existence.

[QED]

Hello John. First I must remind you that Science and Religion is a debating subforum and, as per the Science and Religion subforum guidelines you are asked to have a clear and specific question to debate. I am not convinced that your OP actually meets this requirement, but I can already see something in it that I would like to debate so I'll leave it to the discretion of other moderators to move the topic if they see fit.

1. BODY:

All physical phenomena which may be reasonably and rationally categorized and classified as being part of the universe which physicists have defined as consisting of material force and mass.

Presumably this is your stab at defining the "material". The problem I see in this would be that physicists have yet to set out a Grand Unified Theory which faithfully defines every aspect of this supposed commodity. The approximations we work with instead are not the final say on things and treating them as such is likely to lead to mistakes in classing things as being either material or immaterial. I would even go as far as suggesting that we may have engineered for ourselves a false dichotomy between the two.

This is not, in my opinion, resorting to mysticism -- it is just an observation that assumptions about "dead" matter may be too trivial for an accurate theory of cognition. If we take Holme's suggestion that "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.” then we have to be sure that what we have identified as being impossible really is so.

For example, we know that it is impossible for a person to pass through a solid wall but at the Quantum level things routinely perform this seemingly impossible feat. If our assumptions leave us in ignorance of the vital role such a thing could be playing in what we are considering then we will quite probably end up short-changing ourselves with one of those "improbable truths".

[Confused]

3 SOUL is the essence of self, ego, personality, memory and conscious self-awareness of existence

.

Memory is a function of the mind, ie brain

[jcrawford]

Hello John. First I must remind you that Science and Religion is a debating subforum and, as per the Science and Religion subforum guidelines you are asked to have a clear and specific question to debate. I am not convinced that your OP actually meets this requirement, but I can already see something in it that I would like to debate so I'll leave it to the discretion of other moderators to move the topic if they see fit.

Hello, QED. Sorry for not presenting my proposed thesis in the form of a question but that can be rectified by asking posters to distinguish between what they mean by mind and brain or to explain and question their perceived differences between mental and physical.

1. BODY:

All physical phenomena which may be reasonably and rationally categorized and classified as being part of the universe which physicists have defined as consisting of material force and mass.

Presumably this is your stab at defining the "material". The problem I see in this would be that physicists have yet to set out a Grand Unified Theory which faithfully defines every aspect of this supposed commodity. The approximations we work with instead are not the final say on things and treating them as such is likely to lead to mistakes in classing things as being either material or immaterial. I would even go as far as suggesting that we may have engineered for ourselves a false dichotomy between the two.

While waiting for physicists to work out a GUT, it should be possible for cognitive scientists and others to distinguish between that which is physical or metaphysical, material or immaterial, natural or supernatural, theoretical or factual, or else we may fail to distinguish between what constitutes science and that which is strictly religious.

This is not, in my opinion, resorting to mysticism -- it is just an observation that assumptions about "dead" matter may be too trivial for an accurate theory of cognition.

Observations and assumptions are necessary in order to distinguish between living and "dead" matter, and to base the hypothetical foundations of an accurate theory on.

If we take Holme's suggestion that "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.” then we have to be sure that what we have identified as being impossible really is so.

Since that old Holme's maxim is only applicable when and where the impossible has been realistically and properly identified, it really doesn't apply in cases where and when the possibility of intellectual cognition and acurate scientific knowledge exists or could be ruled out on the basis of being highly improbable.

For example, we know that it is impossible for a person to pass through a solid wall but at the Quantum level things routinely perform this seemingly impossible feat.

Then it is not impossible for things to routinely pass through a wall at the Quantum level.

If our assumptions leave us in ignorance of the vital role such a thing could be playing in what we are considering then we will quite probably end up short-changing ourselves with one of those "improbable truths".

Now that you have established the conceptual existence of "improbable truths," all we have left to do is distinguish between those "truths" which are highly improbable and those which are probably true.

Thank you for the discussion and debate so far. If you feel it necessary for me to repost my thesis in the form of questions, I shall be happy to oblige.

[jcrawford]

3 SOUL is the essence of self, ego, personality, memory and conscious self-awareness of existence

.

Memory is a function of the mind, ie brain

Obviously, mental processes in the mind as well as physical functions in the brain can be associated and involved with the phenomenon of memory, but since my hypothetical definition and characterization of soul categorizes it as the seat and essence of self-conscious existence, all which we conceive and think of as consisting of mind, memory, self, psyche, ego and personality must of necessity be cognitive aspects, properties, characteristics and faculties of the soul.

[Furrowed Brow]

Hi JC

Sorry but I hate your theory already. I prefer my theories to be ontologically parsimonious as possible. Mind, Body and Soul is two too many for me. However there have been some other thread like Robots v Humans you might find useful.

Problems for your theory should address I think: Mind, Body, Soul causality. How do they manage to interact? Does your theory address Free Will. And what about subjective experience or qualia.

I know you are only in the early stages of beating out your theory but in the long term you will also need to think about what predictions it might make, and how it might be falsified.

2 MIND consists of self-conscious cognitive mental processes which intermediate between Body and Soul.

I think you need to unpack this further. What do you have in mind when you use the term "mental processes"? Before you answer that you might find post 356 Where is the Mind? useful.

[jcrawford]

Hi JC

Sorry but I hate your theory already.

Good. That justifies further development of it

I prefer my theories to be ontologically parsimonious as possible. Mind, Body and Soul is two too many for me.

Funny. I prefer to develop a thoughtful and soulful theory of knowledge, mind and mentality by isolating such metaphysical features of our being from the more physical aspects of our bodily functions in order to put all in their proper perspective.

Problems for your theory should address I think: Mind, Body, Soul causality. How do they manage to interact? Does your theory address Free Will. And what about subjective experience or qualia.

I know you are only in the early stages of beating out your theory but in the long term you will also need to think about what predictions it might make, and how it might be falsified.

All in due time, of course, since at this theoretical stage of the creative process of theory making, I am still hypothesizing about the actual states or dimensions in which the three aspects of our being may be said to exist.

Obviously, besides the physical dimension and plane of existence, I have to establish that fact that a mental dimension and plane of human experience also exists, and may indeed be presuppositional to making any mental distinctions between purely mental and physical experiences.

2 MIND consists of self-conscious cognitive mental processes which intermediate between Body and Soul.

I think you need to unpack this further. What do you have in mind when you use the term "mental processes"? Before you answer that you might find post 356 Where is the Mind? useful.

Thanks, but that wasn't helpful at all, since all I mean by mental processes are those functions which are carried out in the mind. eg, math, meditation, conceptualizing, imagining, etc.

Also, I don't see the necessity or even logic of locating the mind in a physical dimension at all since mine is not the typical brain-bound theory which neurologists construct in their minds.

[bernee51]

I am currently working on developing a comprehensive theory of cognition which will account for the existence of man's body, mind and soul, and hereby invite all other posters to reasonably critique or otherwise constructively contribute to the further development of the theory.

It should be presumed and understood from the outset that this scientific experiment is both a scientific and religious work in progress and that any successful development of this theory by current posters will be duly accredited to all those who make reasonable contributions to it's development.

Here is a minimalist account of the theory developed so far by yours truly:


COGNITIVE THEORY of BODY, MIND & SOUL.
by
John Crawford


Initial Premises, Presuppositions and Definitions:

1 BODY consists of physically perceivable sensations of material objects and physical forces.

2 MIND consists of self-conscious cognitive mental processes which intermediate between Body and Soul.

3 SOUL is the essence of self, ego, personality, memory and conscious self-awareness of existence.


Self-evident Postulate and Justification
for Theoretical Premises:

I know (cognize) that I have a brain and nervous system within my body, but have no observable, experiential, testable or scientific way of knowing that my brain or nervous system are capable of knowing anything in the sense that it may be classified as mental, cognitive or self-conscious knowledge.


Further Expositions on, and definitions of,
the Nature, Character, Being, Structure and Essence
of Body, Mind and Soul.


1. BODY:

All physical phenomena which may be reasonably and rationally categorized and classified as being part of the universe which physicists have defined as consisting of material force and mass.


2. MIND

All that which is strictly intellectual, cognitive, conceptual and mental in the realm of consciousness and self-awareness.

Eg: ideas, beliefs, theories, thoughts and knowledge.


3. SOUL

All which pertains to self-consciousness and awareness of self, ego, personhood, individual identity and spiritual existence.

Can a mind exist without a body? Can a soul exist without a mind?

[Cathar1950]

Can a mind exist without a body? Can a soul exist without a mind?

That is the heart of the matter isn't it?

Personally I see the soul as the whole person, body, which includes the brain and mind. They are a mixture of reality(matter?) and abstractions.

Some how you have taken abstractions and separated them into parts.

Funny. I prefer to develop a thoughtful and soulful theory of knowledge, mind and mentality by isolating such metaphysical features of our being from the more physical aspects of our bodily functions in order to put all in their proper perspective.

I am questioning your idea of "thoughtful" but I can't for the life of me think of what you mean by "soulful" I have never heard it used in this context.
Are you trying to separate the metaphysical from the physical or make a tossed salad? What is their proper perspective?

[jcrawford]

Can a mind exist without a body? Can a soul exist without a mind?

That is part of what I am trying to ascertain since a lot of human bodies seem have lost both their minds and souls and I am wondering where they are.