The Queer Contradiction Of Paul's Epistles

[antonio]

All through Paul's writing, the same message drums, over and over, Salvation is by faith alone. The law is useless and in fact, he says if you rely on your effort it offends God because your effort is based on pride.

THEN

In a few places, like 1 Cor 6:9 all of a sudden you have to be rightious to get to heaven and there is a list of sins that suck us all in that keep most of us out of heaven.
This has to be a contradiction. Either Paul was unstable or as some scholars say, others inserted these sections that seem to contradict Paul. Motive, Paul was not liked by Peter who believed in the jewish law, the christian-jews, the roman church.

What must be remembered is there are no originals of the writing that make up the New Testament Bible including the Epistles.. If they ever existed, they are gone. Further, there are no original of copies of what is found in these codices. No one knows what happened to any of these originals or copies or why. In addition, besides there being no originals, there are no copies of the Original nor copies of copies, there are only copies of copies of copies. Dating establishes this. For example, The earliest copies of the Gospel of Luke are four papyrus fragments the size of a credit card, dating from the first half of the 3rd century.

All total there are some 54,000 hand made copies of the New Testament. Some are mere fragments; others are massive tomes of all the books. No two copies agree with another in every detail. Scholars estimate there are some 200,000 to 300,000 undisputed differences.. Most differences are simply clerical errors and mistakes and easily understood but many involve missing or additional verses, words missing, words changed.

There are many sources, if your interested look in Wikipedia or the books of , Marcus Borg, Ehrman

This is what scholars say about the Pauline Epistles

Pauline Epistles allegedly written by Paul:
• Epistle to the Romans
• First Epistle to the Corinthians
• Epistle to the Galatians
• Epistle to the Ephesians
• Epistle to the Philippians
• Epistle to the Colossians
• First Epistle to the Thessalonians
• Second Epistle to the Thessalonians
• First Epistle to Timothy
• Second Epistle to Timothy
• Epistle to Titus
• Epistle to Philemon
The authorship of many of these epistles is contested by the majority of modern scholars and historians. In particular, with respect to the authorship of the Pauline epistles, the pastoral epistles are rejected by two thirds of modern academics and only seven of the Pauline epistles are regarded as uncontested. However , some scholars are of the opinion that passages even of these seven reflect interpolation (forgeries)
Please someone help me understand this.
antonio

[Easyrider]

Easy Rider--REGARDING YOUR IDEA OF PERFECTION---My such a long post ...and it says absolutely nothing except your "interpretation." It is so lacking in source, there is nothing for me to quote.

You think you arguments are more forceful if you make the text larger? It isn't working. It just takes up more space and nothing else. As for the "sources," I cited numerous scriptures to make the case.

Paul said repeatedly, We are as perfect as we are ever going to be-- not because of our effort but because of Jesus' blood. It's pretty plain meaning, ER. TRy actually reading it some time clearheadedly instead of having your mind fogged by what you have erroneiously been taught.

I think you're confused. My argument is that man has no inherent righteousness of his own but only through Christ is he imputed perfect righteousness. I've never taught or believed that man can work his way to salvation.

[antonio]

I have been doing rounds in other ERs for a while around BC. I read my post back in March and I really sounded harsh and flippant. I apologize. I try to squeeze my forum stuff in when i have a few minutes and it lends itself to not sounding friendly. I apologize and will try to sound a little more civil. Also, monitors are often far away from keyboards and I use a big font then forget to change back. Again I apologize for seeming like I was shouting.

I completely agree with the following quote

I think you're confused. My argument is that man has no inherent righteousness of his own but only through Christ is he imputed perfect righteousness. I've never taught or believed that man can work his way to salvation.

Is it your position that Paul's position is that salvation is soley by grace and any seeming verse that I have noted seems to be in conflict with that, it a failure to understand? If so, I will read your post very carefully and try to understand. My studies have always been in science--Iim and intern so I have no formal study in theology. Thank you for your guidance?
antonio

[arayhay]

[

The law is useless and in fact, he says if you rely on your effort it offends God because your effort is based on pride.

[center]Paul does take issue with legalism, not the Torah.[/center]
Your question is pickled in the FALSE belief that Paul doesn't have a favorable opinion , and or use for the law; which isn't the law at all. It's really the Torah. The Torah is not law but instruction, teaching and an expression of the LOVE that god has for us. to call it law is not only limited and narrow, but a negative statement concerning God's love for the human race.
where Paul takes issue with the Torah is when it is not OBSERVED with faith. 2 Cor. 3 all fs 6 says it's not the letter, rather, it's the Spirit that gives life. and fs 15 says that when Mosses is read a veil lies over their heart, but whenever a person TURNS to the Lord, YHVH, the veil is taken away. NOT THE TORAH !

In a few places, like 1 Cor 6:9 all of a sudden you have to be rightious to get to heaven and there is a list of sins that suck us all in that keep most of us out of heaven.
This has to be a contradiction. Either Paul was unstable or as some scholars say, others inserted these sections that seem to contradict Paul. Motive, Paul was not liked by Peter who believed in the jewish law, the christian-jews, the roman church.

SCHOLARSHIP has BEEN wrong ABOUT Paul's view of the Torah for a long time.
Paul says in Ro. that the Torah is Holy Righteous and Good. So explain your contradiction to me again, i don't see it.



The Spirit is THE witness that what is in the Bible [book] is from above or not.

in closing, the Bible is The Word of God. The Word of God is Yahshua.
if 'they ' don't agree then someones lying. but i believe that they have a harmony and concord that is unsurpassed.

[melikio]

The Spirit is THE witness that what is in the Bible [book] is from above or not.

arayhay, I was raised in the traditional sense of Christianity, but I have to question what you mean by "The Spirit".

And if the "Spirit" (as nebulous as the term actually seems to be, to most people) is truly the mind/influence of God upon His word and individuals... HOW do we explain the reality that faithful and sincerely devout, religious "Christians" are often so far-removed from the way(s) of Jesus Christ?

To be more direct, I have become very skeptical of the things which people SAY this or that "verse" or "passage" from Scripture actually means. I've seen people hurt and abused too many times, because of people's "interpretations" that they so often are so confident is equal to THE truth.

I really don't see how someone can follow the Bible, as if the words in it actually came from the mouth of God. The best I can do, is accept that God works in a person over time, to help them be aligned with His will. My main contention though, has to do with those who see it as within their authority or power, to force or compel others to comply with or adhere to interpretations or doctrines, which have they have NOT had confirmed (within them) in any way shape or form. It is often ASSUMED, that the individual SHOULD submit, where there is no real belief or proof to truly convince them.

And despite the reasonable emphasis or urgency of many who DO truly intend to further God's cause, I can't help but see such compulsion of other human beings as a significant contributor to the many social, moral and spritual problems which exist in the world today.

When I go through and look at the qualities of Jesus (the person) and descriptions of "love" in various biblical passages (1Cor13, being a popular reference), I can almost see why "religion" is accomplishing less and less "good" in this world. The Bible has become a book of rules for some to follow and others to ENFORCE. I really do not think that is what the actual Spirit of God is encouraging in those who are truly seeking.

It's just my opinion, but if you met me, it's what you'd see me living by. Love isn't the ONLY thing, but it is THE most excellent thing I've experienced in religion, Christianity and life overall. I believe Jesus was emphasizing both the practical and spiritual dimensions of love, above all other things; but many who are religious/Christian (in my view) fail to see that message. To me, it's like a FLARE fired into the dark of night, or the beam of light from a lighthouse on a shore.

There is so much in the Bible that can teach, but I can't help but wonder why people don't emphasize unconditional love far more than they do.

-Mel-

[antonio]

Dear Easy--I have been doing rounds at ERs all over BC so I haven't been around. I read my posts and realize they sound flippant and rude. I apologize for this. I appreciate your efforts to dialog with me on any subject.
I try to squeeze my posts in at work and the rush and bad conditions for any kind of privacy in an ER probably contributed to the impression my posts created. Also, I sometimes have archaic equipment that requires I enlarge the font just to see it. I forget to decrease it. I assure you i wasn't "yelling."

You last post says to me that Paul never took any position contrary to salvation is by grace alone and has nothing to do with effort. I hope I am reading you correctly. I understand there are conclusions one can draw that may be in error when we haven't studied enough. My entire back ground is science. Iim a doctor and have never had a course in theology. So please excuse my ignorance. I will carefully study what you say is the meaning of those verses of Paul that i thought were saying that getting into heaven depended on our conquest over sin. I can pursue Love of God and neighbor, forgiveness and not judging but as Jesus pointed out regarding thoughts alone being sinful, I know I can never conquer sin. I believe that is why Jesus pointed this out and it seems only Paul got the message.
I look forward to further dialog
antonio

[antonio]

Dear Arayhay---
It seems to me that the core message of Paul is that salvation is by grace alone. Effort is useless and in fact promotes the sense that we have the ability to be godlike and control our human inclinations. Effort implies contempt for the human condition and pride. Because God created us and He has all the power, effort is contempt for God also. I believe that this was Jesus' message when he pointed out how simply thinking about things that violate the Decalog breaks the law. For me, Jesus wasn't adding to our burden and creating a more painful yoke, but was pointing out our effort was useless and that belief and Love is the most we can do and that is enough. I want to believe that Paul understood this message and perhaps the only one who understood it so clearly.


However, when I read certain parts of Paul, I am confused. In a few places, like 1 Cor 6:9 he says that if you engage in certain conduct you will not enter heaven--that only the righteous can get into heaven. His list of conduct is fairly comprehensive. For me, implicit in Cor6:9 is that if your conduct falls within that list, grace will not save you.
This is what I see as the "contradiction." Iim not a theologian so if there is an explanation, it has to be simple, organized and clear.
If I seem to be pounding the table it's because so many Christians use what I'll call christian-speak. They say one thing then say just the opposite.
eg. God loves you-----God will throw you into eternal fire.
God gave you free will---although free, if you exercise it contrary to how He wants your condemned
Your saved by grace--your a homosexual--your going to hell
I love you--I hate your sin even if it is the defining thing about you/slavery/sexism/racism etc
Love your neigbor---Support George Bush in the War in Iraqi
Don't judge--You're a sinner and you're going to hell if you don't change
forgive --we don't allow your type in our church
its endless
So, I 'hm not sure if what Paul is saying is just more or the beginning of christian-speak or there is a different explanation
thank you for helping me
antonio

his has to be a contradiction. Either Paul was unstable or as some scholars say, others inserted these sections that seem to contradict Paul. Motive, Paul was not liked by Peter who believed in the jewish law, the christian-jews, the roman church

[arayhay]

[

quote="antonio"]Dear Arayhay---
It seems to me that the core message of Paul is that salvation is by grace alone. Effort is useless and in fact promotes the sense that we have the ability to be godlike and control our human inclinations. Effort implies contempt for the human condition and pride. Because God created us and He has all the power, effort is contempt for God also. I believe that this was Jesus' message when he pointed out how simply thinking about things that violate the Decalog breaks the law. For me, Jesus wasn't adding to our burden and creating a more painful yoke, but was pointing out our effort was useless and that belief and Love is the most we can do and that is enough. I want to believe that Paul understood this message and perhaps the only one who understood it so clearly.


However, when I read certain parts of Paul, I am confused. In a few places, like 1 Cor 6:9 he says that if you engage in certain conduct you will not enter heaven--that only the righteous can get into heaven. His list of conduct is fairly comprehensive. For me, implicit in Cor6:9 is that if your conduct falls within that list, grace will not save you.
This is what I see as the "contradiction." Iim not a theologian so if there is an explanation, it has to be simple, organized and clear.
If I seem to be pounding the table it's because so many Christians use what I'll call christian-speak. They say one thing then say just the opposite.
eg. God loves you-----God will throw you into eternal fire.
God gave you free will---although free, if you exercise it contrary to how He wants your condemned
Your saved by grace--your a homosexual--your going to hell
I love you--I hate your sin even if it is the defining thing about you/slavery/sexism/racism etc
Love your neigbor---Support George Bush in the War in Iraqi
Don't judge--You're a sinner and you're going to hell if you don't change
forgive --we don't allow your type in our church
its endless
So, I 'hm not sure if what Paul is saying is just more or the beginning of christian-speak or there is a different explanation
thank you for helping me
antonio

his has to be a contradiction. Either Paul was unstable or as some scholars say, others inserted these sections that seem to contradict Paul. Motive, Paul was not liked by Peter who believed in the jewish law, the christian-jews, the roman church

[/quote]

first of all i was glad you apology to easyrider, i could do more of that myself. seeing how i may come across sometimes.

but as for your Q. paul says in Ro. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man / woman is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. justified - G 1344 to render [ that is , show or regard as ] just or innocent: free justify[-ier], be righteous
also we should look at the word without G 5561 at a space, that is , separately or apart from [often as a preposition], - besides by itself, without.
what is the therefore therefore ?

Paul is taking about being justified not sanctified.
we can be saved by faith through grace, not of works; legalism, but works PROVE that we have faith.


the book of james / Ya'adov =Jacob says that faith without works is dead.jam. 2:20 but just before that he says; 2:18 'Yea, a man may say, Thou has faith and i have works, show me thy faith without thy works, and i will show you my faith by my works. and then jam. 2:26 says; For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead.

[Easyrider]

Dear Easy--I have been doing rounds at ERs all over BC so I haven't been around. I read my posts and realize they sound flippant and rude. I apologize for this. I appreciate your efforts to dialog with me on any subject.
I try to squeeze my posts in at work and the rush and bad conditions for any kind of privacy in an ER probably contributed to the impression my posts created. Also, I sometimes have archaic equipment that requires I enlarge the font just to see it. I forget to decrease it. I assure you i wasn't "yelling."

You last post says to me that Paul never took any position contrary to salvation is by grace alone and has nothing to do with effort. I hope I am reading you correctly. I understand there are conclusions one can draw that may be in error when we haven't studied enough. My entire back ground is science. Iim a doctor and have never had a course in theology. So please excuse my ignorance. I will carefully study what you say is the meaning of those verses of Paul that i thought were saying that getting into heaven depended on our conquest over sin. I can pursue Love of God and neighbor, forgiveness and not judging but as Jesus pointed out regarding thoughts alone being sinful, I know I can never conquer sin. I believe that is why Jesus pointed this out and it seems only Paul got the message.
I look forward to further dialog
antonio

Antonio - you're cool! I also appreciate your service in helping the sick, etc.

I believe once we're saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ THEN the works of God are an evidence of our salvation. As Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8-10:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

God bless!

[arayhay]

Dear Easy--I have been doing rounds at ERs all over BC so I haven't been around. I read my posts and realize they sound flippant and rude. I apologize for this. I appreciate your efforts to dialog with me on any subject.
I try to squeeze my posts in at work and the rush and bad conditions for any kind of privacy in an ER probably contributed to the impression my posts created. Also, I sometimes have archaic equipment that requires I enlarge the font just to see it. I forget to decrease it. I assure you i wasn't "yelling."

You last post says to me that Paul never took any position contrary to salvation is by grace alone and has nothing to do with effort. I hope I am reading you correctly. I understand there are conclusions one can draw that may be in error when we haven't studied enough. My entire back ground is science. Iim a doctor and have never had a course in theology. So please excuse my ignorance. I will carefully study what you say is the meaning of those verses of Paul that i thought were saying that getting into heaven depended on our conquest over sin. I can pursue Love of God and neighbor, forgiveness and not judging but as Jesus pointed out regarding thoughts alone being sinful, I know I can never conquer sin. I believe that is why Jesus pointed this out and it seems only Paul got the message.
I look forward to further dialog
antonio

Antonio - you're cool! I also appreciate your service in helping the sick, etc.

I believe once we're saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ THEN the works of God are an evidence of our salvation. As Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8-10:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

God bless!

and what are the WORKS and COMMANDMENTS ? spell them out for me will you ?

[antonio]

Dear Easy--I want to agree with your conclusion. In fact, I found that explanation reconciling James and Paul about works and posted it on iFaithforum but was shot down . The still asserted no matter your belief and grace, certain behavior precluded you from being saved.
I'm going to go back there and post your explanation(Ill leave the author unidentified) and see what they say.
thank you
antonio