All through Paul's writing, the same message drums, over and over, Salvation is by faith alone. The law is useless and in fact, he says if you rely on your effort it offends God because your effort is based on pride.
THEN
In a few places, like 1 Cor 6:9 all of a sudden you have to be rightious to get to heaven and there is a list of sins that suck us all in that keep most of us out of heaven.
This has to be a contradiction. Either Paul was unstable or as some scholars say, others inserted these sections that seem to contradict Paul. Motive, Paul was not liked by Peter who believed in the jewish law, the christian-jews, the roman church.
What must be remembered is there are no originals of the writing that make up the New Testament Bible including the Epistles.. If they ever existed, they are gone. Further, there are no original of copies of what is found in these codices. No one knows what happened to any of these originals or copies or why. In addition, besides there being no originals, there are no copies of the Original nor copies of copies, there are only copies of copies of copies. Dating establishes this. For example, The earliest copies of the Gospel of Luke are four papyrus fragments the size of a credit card, dating from the first half of the 3rd century.
All total there are some 54,000 hand made copies of the New Testament. Some are mere fragments; others are massive tomes of all the books. No two copies agree with another in every detail. Scholars estimate there are some 200,000 to 300,000 undisputed differences.. Most differences are simply clerical errors and mistakes and easily understood but many involve missing or additional verses, words missing, words changed.
There are many sources, if your interested look in Wikipedia or the books of , Marcus Borg, Ehrman
This is what scholars say about the Pauline Epistles
Pauline Epistles allegedly written by Paul:
• Epistle to the Romans
• First Epistle to the Corinthians
• Epistle to the Galatians
• Epistle to the Ephesians
• Epistle to the Philippians
• Epistle to the Colossians
• First Epistle to the Thessalonians
• Second Epistle to the Thessalonians
• First Epistle to Timothy
• Second Epistle to Timothy
• Epistle to Titus
• Epistle to Philemon
The authorship of many of these epistles is contested by the majority of modern scholars and historians. In particular, with respect to the authorship of the Pauline epistles, the pastoral epistles are rejected by two thirds of modern academics and only seven of the Pauline epistles are regarded as uncontested. However , some scholars are of the opinion that passages even of these seven reflect interpolation (forgeries)
Please someone help me understand this.
antonio
The Queer Contradiction Of Paul's Epistles
Moderator: Moderators
-
Easyrider
Post #31
Yes, BUT godly works are the result of our salvation, not the cause of it. For instance, does a preacher sincerely preach about Christ before he believes? I think they miss the part about the indwelling Holy Spirit coming into the believer at salvation.antonio wrote: Dear Easy--I want to agree with your conclusion. In fact, I found that explanation reconciling James and Paul about works and posted it on iFaithforum but was shot down.
They still asserted no matter your belief and grace, certain behavior precluded you from being saved.
THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE LIFE OF THE BELIEVER
Scholar Kevin Conner ("The Foundations of Christian Doctrine" - available at Amazon.com) provides the following evidences of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer (scriptural references cited to back up the arguments):
1. The new birth is brought about by the Spirit (John 3:5-6).
2. The Spirit indwells the believer's spirit (Romans 8:9; I Corinthians 3:16; 6:17).
3. The Spirit gives assurance of salvation (Romans 8:16).
4. The Spirit fills the believer with Himself (Acts 2:4).
5. The Spirit speaks to the believer (Acts 8:29; I Timothy 4:1; Revelation 2:7).
6. The Spirit provides understanding about the things of God (I Corinthians 2:12)
7. The Spirit teaches and guides the believer (John 16:13; I John 2:27).
8. The Spirit imparts life (John 6:63; II Corinthians 3:6).
9. The Spirit brings about renewal (Titus 3:5).
10. The Spirit strengthens the believer's inner being (Ephesians 3:16).
11. The Spirit enables the believer to pray (Jude 20; Romans 8:26-28).
12. The Spirit enables the believer to worship in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24; Philippians 3:3; I Corinthians 14:15).
13. The Spirit leads the believer (Romans 8:14).
14. The Spirit enables the believer to put carnal works to death (Romans 8:13).
15. The Spirit produces Christ-likeness in character and fruit in the believer's life (Galatians 5:22, 23).
16. The Spirit gives a calling to the believer for special service (Acts 13:2-4).
17. The Spirit guides believers into their ministry (Acts 8:29; 16:6-7).
18. The Spirit empowers the believer to witness (Acts 1:8).
19. The Spirit imparts spiritual gifts as He wills (I Corinthians 12:7-11).
20. The Spirit will bring about the resurrection and immortality to the believers' bodies in the last day (Romans 8:11; I Corinthians 15:47-51; I Thes. 4:15-18).
This is one of the most overlooked things about Christianity - the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.
I think basically, if people could obtain salvation by their own works then Christ is superfluous.
Feel free to use that long explanation I previously provided if you want. I'll be interested to see what they say in response.antonio wrote: I'm going to go back there and post your explanation(Ill leave the author unidentified) and see what they say.
thank you
antonio
Blessings...
-
Easyrider
Post #32
Antonio -
I was also thinking about a couple of other related points. One being that if works have to be part of the salvation equation then no one on their death bed can ever repent and be saved.
Another thing is that there is one passage (the only one I know of) which places salvation, works, and rewards in their proper perspective.
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." I Corinthians 3:11-15
The Full Life Study Bible provides these remarks on the above passage:
"HE WILL SUFFER LOSS: There is a future judgment for believers (I John 4:17) as to the degree of their faithfulness to God and the grace given to them during this life on earth (v.10; 4:2-5; 2 Cor.5:10). In that judgment there is the possibility that a believer, although receiving salvation, may experience great loss (Greek zemloo, meaning 'to suffer loss or damage'). The careless believer is in danger of suffering loss or damage in the following ways: (1) a feeling of shame at Christ's coming (2 Ti. 2:15; 1 John 2:28); (2) loss of his or her life's work for God (vv. 12-15); (3) loss of glory and honor before God (cf. Romans 2:7); (4) loss of opportunity for service and authority in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (5) a low position in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (6) loss of rewards (cf. v. 14-15); and (7) repayment for the wrong done to others (Col. 3:24-25).
AS ONE ESCAPING THROUGH THE FLAMES: 'Escaping through the flames' is probably an expression meaning 'barely saved.' God will evaluate the quality of life, influence, teaching, and work in the life of each person. If his work is judged unworthy, he will lose his (heavenly) reward, yet he himself will be saved." ( Full Life 1755-56)
Godly works do not result in justification / salvation, but are directed towards the edification and salvation of others for the glory of God, and eventually result in some type of heavenly rewards. For those who may have been saved just prior to death (the thief on the cross), there may not be any works to reward, yet their salvation is yet assured. It is my contention that once a person is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9), eventually, if they live long enough, there should be some sort of Godly works in their life (Ephesians 2:10, James chapter 2), which are helped to fruition by the Holy Spirit - see previous post).
The proper salvation equation is: Faith in Christ = justification / salvation. Then this leads to works. Some want to make it to be: Faith + works = salvation. They don't know how many works or what kind are involved. But if they want to include works then they need to make sure they include this one from Jesus:
John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Of course, once they "believe" then they're justified by faith.
I was also thinking about a couple of other related points. One being that if works have to be part of the salvation equation then no one on their death bed can ever repent and be saved.
Another thing is that there is one passage (the only one I know of) which places salvation, works, and rewards in their proper perspective.
"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." I Corinthians 3:11-15
The Full Life Study Bible provides these remarks on the above passage:
"HE WILL SUFFER LOSS: There is a future judgment for believers (I John 4:17) as to the degree of their faithfulness to God and the grace given to them during this life on earth (v.10; 4:2-5; 2 Cor.5:10). In that judgment there is the possibility that a believer, although receiving salvation, may experience great loss (Greek zemloo, meaning 'to suffer loss or damage'). The careless believer is in danger of suffering loss or damage in the following ways: (1) a feeling of shame at Christ's coming (2 Ti. 2:15; 1 John 2:28); (2) loss of his or her life's work for God (vv. 12-15); (3) loss of glory and honor before God (cf. Romans 2:7); (4) loss of opportunity for service and authority in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (5) a low position in heaven (Mt. 25:14-30); (6) loss of rewards (cf. v. 14-15); and (7) repayment for the wrong done to others (Col. 3:24-25).
AS ONE ESCAPING THROUGH THE FLAMES: 'Escaping through the flames' is probably an expression meaning 'barely saved.' God will evaluate the quality of life, influence, teaching, and work in the life of each person. If his work is judged unworthy, he will lose his (heavenly) reward, yet he himself will be saved." ( Full Life 1755-56)
Godly works do not result in justification / salvation, but are directed towards the edification and salvation of others for the glory of God, and eventually result in some type of heavenly rewards. For those who may have been saved just prior to death (the thief on the cross), there may not be any works to reward, yet their salvation is yet assured. It is my contention that once a person is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9), eventually, if they live long enough, there should be some sort of Godly works in their life (Ephesians 2:10, James chapter 2), which are helped to fruition by the Holy Spirit - see previous post).
The proper salvation equation is: Faith in Christ = justification / salvation. Then this leads to works. Some want to make it to be: Faith + works = salvation. They don't know how many works or what kind are involved. But if they want to include works then they need to make sure they include this one from Jesus:
John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Of course, once they "believe" then they're justified by faith.
Post #33
Easy, that is a great response. I can see many of those qualities of Spirit taking hold in my life. In fact what you have posted here is exactly what I have been saying:As soon as i believed My Father loved me unconditionally and I believed in HIm and tried to practice love and forgiveness and no judgement, my desire to to please God was became automatic. My life wasn't filled with "Thou Shall Nots" but rather, "Thou Shalls." Back then I called it being in love with God, Even though I didn't express it that way, I now see it's the work of the Spirit.
thank you
I'll share it and let you know.
antonio
thank you
I'll share it and let you know.
antonio
-
Easyrider
Post #35
Thanks, Antonio! Keep the faith, brother!antonio wrote:Easy, that is a great response. I can see many of those qualities of Spirit taking hold in my life. In fact what you have posted here is exactly what I have been saying:As soon as i believed My Father loved me unconditionally and I believed in HIm and tried to practice love and forgiveness and no judgement, my desire to to please God was became automatic. My life wasn't filled with "Thou Shall Nots" but rather, "Thou Shalls." Back then I called it being in love with God, Even though I didn't express it that way, I now see it's the work of the Spirit.
thank you
I'll share it and let you know.
antonio
Post #36
The question was for anyone, but I'll try to be more precise.antonio wrote:Dear Arayhay--Im not sure who you were asking the question. Probably not me cuz I don't know anything. but let me know.
antonio
The works that have been prepared for us from the beginning of time are a gift as much as faith is a gift. Paul confronts the idea that people were relying on their heritage or lineage. This lead to exclusion rather than inclusion, and pride as apposed to humility. Which lead, in turn, to a peaking order if you will, sometimes called the scandal of particularity. In sum, Paul takes issue with motivation, not works. easy rightly points out that they're value is the result of, or follow's faith as apposed to preceding it.
