The Uselessness of Prayer

[Lotan]

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Matt. 21:22

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. James 5:15

Q. Is prayer a waste of time?

A. Prayer is an ineffective superstitious behavior, and the Bible's claims regarding it are false.

[Cephus]

If you dont see the benefits in prayer, then you are doing wrong.

But it is only beneficial because of positive thinking, not because of any supernatural aspect. Just thinking positively has the same effect. Petting your cat has the same effect. It isn't the prayer that matters, it's how you think and feel, prayer itself is utterly worthless.

[Goat]

If you dont see the benefits in prayer, then you are doing wrong.

But it is only beneficial because of positive thinking, not because of any supernatural aspect. Just thinking positively has the same effect. Petting your cat has the same effect. It isn't the prayer that matters, it's how you think and feel, prayer itself is utterly worthless.

If the act of praying lets someone have positive feeling, it is good enough for me.

[Cephus]

If the act of praying lets someone have positive feeling, it is good enough for me.

Which is fine, but let's not pretend that the prayer is what does it. You can pray to your dog and get the same positive feelings, but it isn't yout dog that did it.

[Lotan]

If the act of praying lets someone have positive feeling, it is good enough for me.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that it doesn't, but the Bible claims that prayer can do so much more than just give someone a "positive feeling".

[Cogitoergosum]

Jesus said if you had as much faith as a mustard seed you will be able to move mountains. I don't see any mountains moving, i guess no one has this much faith, maybe everyone is going to hell....(Thank goodness there is no such thing).

[Confused]

I would argue it is more related to state of mind rather than prayer.

Maybe. Prayer is but one vehicle among many for achieving this 'state of mind'. Chanting, fasting, and narcotics work well too. My native friends like to cook themselves in a sweat lodge. There are lots of ways to reach altered states.

If one feels they have lived their life to the point that they are now comfortable moving on to join loved ones, then all the prayers in the world will not help.

Do you mean that if a really really faithful person prays really really hard they can't keep Grandma alive forever?

I think one can make an argument along the lines of knowing that so many people care enough to pray for you every day might be all one needs to improve their state of mind or give them a will to live so they might fight harder.

That sounds sensible, and one could make that argument, but they would have to explain why a recent scientific study of prayer showed just the opposite to be the case. From the Seattle Times...

"Praying for a sick heart patient may feel right to people of faith, but it doesn't appear to improve the patient's health, according to a new study that is the largest ever done on the healing powers of prayer.
Indeed, researchers at the Harvard Medical School and five other U.S. medical centers found, to their bewilderment, that coronary-bypass patients who knew strangers were praying for them fared significantly worse than people who got no prayers."

It does seem to point to some kind of mind/body connection though. The findings from the STEP study mentioned in the article can be found here.

But is it the prayer itself that cures or the will to fight it creates?

Or maybe it's pixies? Since we don't know the answer, it doesn't make sense to limit the possibilities to only those two things. (False Dichotomy)

I would be hard pressed to attribute it to anything more than the state of mind.

I think there's enough evidence that one's "state of mind" plays a role in healing. A correlation between health and state of mind tell us nothing about God though, and none of this has much to do with the Bible's claims that I have presented. Here they are again...

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matt. 21:22

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. James 5:15

And we have this confidence in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in regard to whatever we ask, we know that what we have asked him for is ours. 1John 5: 14-15

All valid points. But I still say that if the Lord has lifted you up, you are dead.
(had to say it, sorry ). I knew someone had posted something about a prayer study before but I couldn't remember who and what thread it was in.

I would argue that if one is ready to die, all the prayers in the world will not change this.

True, it could be other variables outside of state of mind vs prayer that leads to a cure or death. There is no such thing as a textbook case of any disease. Patients follow as many unexpected courses of reactions to treatments as they do expected courses. Extranious variables (differential diagnoses) can sometimes be determined, but often, not soon enough.

[Lotan]

All valid points. But I still say that if the Lord has lifted you up, you are dead. (had to say it, sorry ).

All right! If you're lookin' a fight ( ) then take this...

"egeiro - probably akin to the base of agora - agora 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties); to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying, from disease, from death; or figuratively, from obscurity, inactivity, ruins, nonexistence):--awake, lift (up), raise (again, up), rear up, (a-)rise (again, up), stand, take up" - from Strong's translation of James 5:15

I would argue that if one is ready to die, all the prayers in the world will not change this.

What a gyp!

True, it could be other variables outside of state of mind vs prayer that leads to a cure or death. There is no such thing as a textbook case of any disease. Patients follow as many unexpected courses of reactions to treatments as they do expected courses. Extranious variables (differential diagnoses) can sometimes be determined, but often, not soon enough.

Since you have firsthand experience of these things would you also say that these "Extranious variables" might sometimes also account for 'miraculous' recoveries?

[micatala]

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Matt. 21:22

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. James 5:15

Q. Is prayer a waste of time?

A. Prayer is an ineffective superstitious behavior, and the Bible's claims regarding it are false.

BTW, since we are limiting this thread to only certain types of prayers, we might consider that the Q and A here need amending. "Is praying for a particular event to happen a waste of time." Certainly I think we have shown prayer for other purposes is neither a waste of time, nor useless, nor even ineffective, depending on the effect one is hoping to achieve (if any).

Also, it is worth repeating that the audience to which these verses were delivered certainly would have believed in the efficacy of prayer. They would have been able to point to many OT scriptures which described the effectiveness of prayer. Thus, they would be more likely to actually have faith in the power of prayer to be effective, even though clearly they would not have considered it an 'every day occurrence.'

For example, obviously the parents of John the Baptist had been waiting a long time to have their prayer answered. It was not an 'instantaneous miraculous event'. From the text, one would imply that they expected an answer might take a long time.

[Lotan]

BTW, since we are limiting this thread to only certain types of prayers, we might consider that the Q and A here need amending. "Is praying for a particular event to happen a waste of time." Certainly I think we have shown prayer for other purposes is neither a waste of time, nor useless, nor even ineffective, depending on the effect one is hoping to achieve (if any).

You're absolutely right. The OP was a bit sloppy and I will amend it right now. It really should have read like this...

Q. Is prayer as described in the following scripture...

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matt. 21:22

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. James 5:15

And we have this confidence in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in regard to whatever we ask, we know that what we have asked him for is ours. 1John 5: 14-15

...a waste of time?

A. Prayer as described above is an ineffective superstitious behavior, and the Bible's claims regarding it are false.

How's that?

Also, it is worth repeating that the audience to which these verses were delivered certainly would have believed in the efficacy of prayer.

I'm afraid that you've lost me. Which audience are you referring to? Are you saying that these verses weren't meant for everyone for all time? Was there some sort of expiry date?

They would have been able to point to many OT scriptures which described the effectiveness of prayer.

And this is no longer possible for Christians?

Thus, they would be more likely to actually have faith in the power of prayer to be effective, even though clearly they would not have considered it an 'every day occurrence.'

So, are you saying that people were more 'faithful' in the 1st century than they are today? Is there no one today who actually has "faith in the power of prayer to be effective"?

For example, obviously the parents of John the Baptist had been waiting a long time to have their prayer answered. It was not an 'instantaneous miraculous event'. From the text, one would imply that they expected an answer might take a long time.

You are correct. It was neither "instantaneous" nor "miraculous". According to the text, after Zecharias is given the green light by the angel, he goes home and Elisabeth conceives shortly thereafter. It would be miraculous if she had conceived before he got home! Either way, if God procrastinates, that has little relevance to the issue of whether he actually answers a prayer or not (unless Zechariah and Elisabeth had set a deadline. By rights they should have been able to have anything they wanted since...

Both were righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly. Luke 1:6

..even though, as Paul says...

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; Romans 3:10

BTW, where is that written?)

[Confused]

All valid points. But I still say that if the Lord has lifted you up, you are dead. (had to say it, sorry ).

All right! If you're lookin' a fight ( ) then take this...

"egeiro - probably akin to the base of agora - agora 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties); to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying, from disease, from death; or figuratively, from obscurity, inactivity, ruins, nonexistence):--awake, lift (up), raise (again, up), rear up, (a-)rise (again, up), stand, take up" - from Strong's translation of James 5:15

I would argue that if one is ready to die, all the prayers in the world will not change this.

What a gyp!

True, it could be other variables outside of state of mind vs prayer that leads to a cure or death. There is no such thing as a textbook case of any disease. Patients follow as many unexpected courses of reactions to treatments as they do expected courses. Extranious variables (differential diagnoses) can sometimes be determined, but often, not soon enough.

Since you have firsthand experience of these things would you also say that these "Extranious variables" might sometimes also account for 'miraculous' recoveries?

Your killing me .

I would say that anyone who didn't look at extraneous variable before considering a miracle was blind. No person responds to treatment or disease the same as another. An autopsy can give some of the picture, but it still can't say why two identical cases would result in one death and one recovery.