Genesis 1 and Big Bang

[otseng]

Split from another thread:

I agree that the BB is compatible with a creator although a creator is not necessary for the BB theory. But is the BB compatible with the God who inspired Genesis 1?

Actually, yes, I think the BB and Genesis 1 is compatible. At least enough for me.

Question for debate: Are the theory of Big Bang and the narrative of Genesis chapter 1 compatible?

[McCulloch]

Actually, yes, I think the BB and Genesis 1 is compatible. At least enough for me.

[mcol]Genesis 1[mcol]Big Bang[mcol]Big Bang (cont)[row]Day 1: Heavens and the Earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.[col]Up to 10(-43) seconds after the Big Bang: The Planck epoch -- the four fundamental forces – electromagnetism, weak nuclear force, strong nuclear force and gravity – all have the same strength, so they are possibly unified into one fundamental force.[col]Between 1 second and 3 seconds after the Big Bang: The lepton epoch[row]Day 2: Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. [col]Between 10(-43) seconds and 10(-35) seconds after the Big Bang: The Grand unification epoch [col]Between 3 seconds and 380,000 years after the Big Bang The photon epoch[row]Day 3: Then God said, "Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a third day. [col]Between 10(-35) seconds and 10(-32) seconds after the Big Bang: The inflationary epoch [mcol]Solar System[row]Day 4: Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.[col]Between 10(-32) seconds and 10(-12) seconds after the Big Bang: The electroweak epoch[col]4.6 billion years ago. Formation of the Sun [row]Day 5: Then God said, "Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens." God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.[col]Between 10(-12) seconds and 10(-6) seconds after the Big Bang: The quark epoch [col]4.57 billion years ago formation of Earth[row]Day 6: Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind"; and it was so. God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. [...] And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. [col]Between 10(-6) seconds and 1 second after the Big Bang The hadron epoch [col]4.10 billion years ago The surface of the Earth cools enough for the crust to solidify. The atmosphere and the oceans form.

[sarcasm]They pretty much describe the same thing, if you are not too critical of the details. [/sarcasm]

[otseng]

[sarcasm]They pretty much describe the same thing, if you are not too critical of the details. [/sarcasm]

Not sure how you came up with that correlation between the BB and Genesis, but that's not how I would interpret it. Perhaps though a separate thread would be better for this discussion.

[McCulloch]

[sarcasm]They pretty much describe the same thing, if you are not too critical of the details. [/sarcasm]

Not sure how you came up with that correlation between the BB and Genesis, but that's not how I would interpret it.

That's the whole point. When you line up the BB and Genesis, there is no correlation.
Perhaps to look at it another way:

[mcol]Genesis[mcol]Big Bang[row][list=1][*]Heavens and the Earth. surface of the deep & surface of the waters (implied) [*]Light and Darkness (Day and Night) [*]An Expanse, called heaven [NB. different from the heavens] in the midst of the waters, that separates the waters from the waters. [*]Dry Land and Seas [*]Vegetation [*]Lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. Two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night. The stars also.[*]Water creatures, and birds [*]Beasts of the earth [*]Humans[/list][col]Big Bang Cosmology[list=1][*]one fundamental force[*]electroweak force[*]quarks [*]hadrons [*]leptons [*]photons (Light) [*]the Sun [*]Earth [*]Continents and Sea [/list]Evolution[list=1][*]Archaic Life [*]Bacteria [*]eukaryotes [*]colonial algae [*]choanoflagellates [*]Sponges [*]jellyfish [*]Flatworms [*]Arthropods [*]primitive chordates [*]jawless fish [*]Cambrian-Ordovician Extinction [*]first primitive land plants [*]millipedes and centipedes [*]two Ordovician-Silurian extinctions [*]first of the jawed fishes [*]Insects and sharks [*]lobe-finned fishes [*]Late Devonian extinction[*]Primitive tetrapods[*]Plants with seeds [*]amniotic eggs [*]Dragonflies [*]Amphibians [*]Reptiles [*]Permian-Triassic extinction [*]ray-finned fish[*]crocodilians, dinosaurs, and pterosaurs[*]Early mammals [*]Triassic-Jurassic mass extinction [*]first true mammals[*]first birds [*]flowered plants [*]placental mammals [*]Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction[*]Primates [*]Humans [/list]

Perhaps though a separate thread would be better for this discussion.

Done.

[The Duke of Vandals]

Question for debate: Are the theory of Big Bang and the narrative of Genesis chapter 1 compatible?

This is like asking, "are the workings of electricity compatible with Zeus?"

[otseng]

To reconcile the BB and Genesis 1, I refer to the book Starlight and Time, by Russell Humphreys.

Day 1

Gen 1:1-5 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

All the matter/energy in the universe started off as a huge ball of water 2 light-years in diameter. This is referred to as the "deep". By the sheer mass of this ball, it was basically a black hole with an event horizon half a billion light-years away.

The gravitational pressure causes the water to collapse and causes thermonuclear fusion and energy was released - "light".

Day 2

Gen 1:6-8 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

God expands the ball of matter. The center part of the ball becomes the Earth. The outer parts becomes everything else. As matter is stretched out, the event horizon starts to collapse.

Day 3

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Earth is formed at this point with land, seas, and vegetation. Stars are not yet formed.

Day 4

Gen 1:14-19 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

The stars are formed on the 4th day. The event horizon starts to reach the Earth. As the event horizon passes through the Earth, a large amount of time (billions of years) pass beyond the event horizon, while only one day passes in the event horizon.

Day 5

Gen 1:20-23 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

God creates the sea creatures.

Day 6
Gen 1:24-26 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God creates the land creatures and man.

[McCulloch]

Otseng, your explanation is really quite forced don't you think?

The Big Bang does not include any big ball of water.
The Big Bang does not allow for land, seas, and vegetation to exist prior to the stars.
Evolution has the first vegetation prior to whales and birds.

You have failed to show how Genesis 1 is a description of the big bang cosmology.

[otseng]

Of course my explanation is not identical to the BB theory. For sake of clarity, let's call my explanation the White Hole Model (WHM).

The BB and the WHM are similar in that they both explain the observations that we see of the CMBR and the Hubble Law. They both also state that the universe started at some point in time billions of years ago as something small (singularity, deep) and expanded to form the universe. This is in contrast to other models such as the Steady state theory. And also contrasted to other creationist models, the WHM says it took billions of years for light from distant stars to reach us.

Really there is one major difference between the BB and the WHM. The BB assumes that the universe is elliptical non-Euclidean. Whereas the WHM assumes the universe is Euclidean. And based on current measurements, evidence is in favor of a Euclidean universe.

So, though the WHM is not exactly similar to the BB, it is how I reconcile Genesis 1 and the Big Bang theory.

[otseng]

You have failed to show how Genesis 1 is a description of the big bang cosmology.

In the OP, you asked "Are the theory of Big Bang and the narrative of Genesis chapter 1 compatible?" I've stated yes and demonstrated how they are compatible. I've never stated that Genesis 1 is a description of the BB theory.

[McCulloch]

Of course my explanation is not identical to the BB theory. For sake of clarity, let's call my explanation the White Hole Model (WHM).

The BB and the WHM are similar in that they both explain the observations that we see of the CMBR and the Hubble Law. They both also state that the universe started at some point in time billions of years ago as something small (singularity, deep) and expanded to form the universe. This is in contrast to other models such as the Steady state theory. And also contrasted to other creationist models, the WHM says it took billions of years for light from distant stars to reach us.

Really there is one major difference between the BB and the WHM. The BB assumes that the universe is elliptical non-Euclidean. Whereas the WHM assumes the universe is Euclidean. And based on current measurements, evidence is in favor of a Euclidean universe.

So, though the WHM is not exactly similar to the BB, it is how I reconcile Genesis 1 and the Big Bang theory.

You reconcile Genesis to the Big Bang theory by proposing a new theory which is compatible with neither. Is it your own idea or are there a phalanx of geocentric creationist cosmologists who support it?

You have failed to show how Genesis 1 is a description of the big bang cosmology.

In the OP, you asked "Are the theory of Big Bang and the narrative of Genesis chapter 1 compatible?" I've stated yes and demonstrated how they are compatible. I've never stated that Genesis 1 is a description of the BB theory.

Your theory involves a big ball of water. Genesis has water before stars. Big Bang has no bit ball of water and water after stars. I think that any reasonable appraisal would conclude that we are discussing three different incompatible theories.