THEY WOULDNT HAVE DIED FOR A LIE!

[PILGRIMSHOST]

I is clear that all arguments against christianity are pointless and wrong because those that were martyred for their belief in Christ wouldn't have died for a lie. Who would stand accused of something, knowing it to be not true and still take the punishment unattested?

The Bible clearly names saints and their execution based souly on what they believed.
And the vaste world of contributing sources support this claim aswell.

What can prove this to be wrong and thus prove my statement wrong?

Let the truth of God and his word shine through and all truth be revealed as his word clearly says.

[Fallibleone]

I agree, it's highly unlikely that anyone would willingly die for a lie. Therefore it's obvious that the things they died for they believed to be true. Unfortunately for them, what they believed to be true and what actually is true are two separate things. In other words, the fact that one ardently believes something to be true does not make it true.

[BozzyB]

What can prove this to be wrong and thus prove my statement wrong?

Suicide bombers are willing to die for their beliefs, and they wouldn't be willing to die for a lie, would they?

The branch Davidians were willing to die for what they beleived.

Just beleiving in, and willing to die for, something doesn't make that belief any more true.




BozzyB

[Furrowed Brow]

Premise 1: martyrs die for what they believe.
Premise 2: if someone dies for what they believe, then what they believe must be true.

Observation: Muslim martyrs flew planes into the Twin Towers in the belief they would enter paradise.

Conclusion1: What Muslim’s believe is true.

Conclusion 2: Muslim's believe Jesus is a holy prophet but not the messiah.

conclusion 3: Jesus is not the Messiah.

[k-nug]

Premise 1: martyrs die for what they believe.
Premise 2: if someone dies for what they believe, then what they believe must be true.

Observation: Muslim martyrs flew planes into the Twin Towers in the belief they would enter paradise.

Conclusion1: What Muslim’s believe is true.

Conclusion 2: Muslim's believe Jesus is a holy prophet but not the messiah.

conclusion 3: Jesus is not the Messiah.

Well, I was gonna post a reply, but alas, you completely decimated the argument in short order.

[PILGRIMSHOST]

Thank you for your replies...but may I add one detail to this debate;

Unlike the examples given such as muslims of the 21st century reading from a book... the martyrs Im talking about SAW the risen JESUS!

Muslims and other people who blow themselves up is more suicide than martyrdom, as its purpose is to kill others and by default and the means to do so is that the bomber is going to get caught in the blast- a calculated risk. Muslims commit suicide in the name of jihad. This jihad is brought on out of hatred for the enemy who invariably has persecuted and killed their relatives and peoples for as long as they can remember. So the reason is not really because they believe their religion is total truth but it is their sacrifice for their peoples struggle against the enemy. Mohammed just so happened to include a clause in the Koran that staighted that if you die in conflict with the 'infidels' you will go straight to heaven ect, ect.

The Branch Davidians were actually murdered by a heavy handed ATF force which caused the deaths of many Davidians as retribution for the death of one of their own, which later saw the death of others as well. Though the Davidians were fanatical and followed David Karesh totally they were attacked and-like all of us would do- tried to defend themselves in self defence.

Unlike any of these cases, the martyred apostles didnt commit suicide or murder but proclaimed the risen Jesus of which they had seen with their own Eyes. They could have renounced it, and lived. But knowing what they had seen to be true and the reward for not renouncing Jesus they happily faced death at the hands of their persecutors

[The Duke of Vandals]

I is clear that all arguments against christianity are pointless and wrong because those that were martyred for their belief in Christ wouldn't have died for a lie. Who would stand accused of something, knowing it to be not true and still take the punishment unattested?

How do you know the disciples A) existed and B) did what they allegedly did? The bible only alleges the deaths of two of the disciples, after all.

The truth is the disciples are every bit as fictional as their master. We don't have a shred of evidence they existed and the only people who ever mention them in any meaningful way are early Church fathers who have a clear agenda in perpetuating the godman myth.

The disciples are one of the (if not the) strong selling points of Christianity. Just as the rational mind is starting to think "wait... this is bull. People don't come back from the dead" Christianity does a really dishonest & ingeneous thing. It appeals to the strongest motivating human emotion: guilt (or the avoidance there of). The disciple tale is meant to guilt people into believing the godman existed. After all, who needs sound evidence when you can just bully the masses into believing?

Present evidence the disciples actually existed. As it stands, using the disciples to prove Christianity is as intellectually honest as using Lois Lane & Lex Luthor to prove Superman is real.

[PILGRIMSHOST]

Hey Duke, how you doing?

Well I would say wheres the evidence they didn't exist?

We all know Paul existed-you can trace his route around the med and find evidence for his activities spreading the word. His letters and historians mentioning him.

The question seems to be if Jesus never raised or never existed, then why would paul write about his apostle mates who he claimed to had known Jesus personally and saw him risen? moreover how would vast amounts of christians hassle the Roman empire all over even as far as Egypt if there was no basis for christianity, yet hundreds at a time were willing to be decapitated and persecuted for nothing?

Theres no way it would spread because out of rumour or old fishermans tales. What, somebody missheard someone else while at the fish market that a guy rose from the dead and acsended into heaven, then ran to the nearest Roman soldier begging to be nailed to a tree?

[Vladd44]

I is clear that all arguments against christianity are pointless and wrong because those that were martyred for their belief in Christ wouldn't have died for a lie.

Who would stand accused of something, knowing it to be not true and still take the punishment unattested?

Back to assumptionville again.

People commit suicide so they don't have to face the consequences of their lies being found out all the time. Never underestimate personal vanity as a motivation to do the irrational.

the martyrs Im talking about SAW the risen JESUS!

Let's suppose that Jesus was a real person, who was crucified more or less like the bible said he was. It would be possible for someone to be crucified for 6 hours and not die.

He would not have been the first to survive a crucifixion. A few friends and family could see him, and then a quick out of Roman territory.

Let the truth of God and his word shine through and all truth be revealed as his word clearly says.

Let the cheesiness of The most holy Flying Spaghetti Monster shine through and all truth regarding pirates be revealed as his noodly appendages clearly teach.

[PILGRIMSHOST]

There is no way he survived the crucifiction,

1. All Roman soldiers knew that if the death sentence was not fulfilled they too would be committed to death, so I don think this would happen some how.
2. To survive the flagging is nearly impossible by itself. 39 strips was the law, the Romans hated the Jews and would often over lap the count regardless. Many died at this stage.
3. The jewish day ended at 6pm (our day ends at 12am) The law stated that no person was to remain on the crosses on the sabbath.The next day was supposed to be the sabbath. So the condemed had to be taken down, yet it would often take days for a man to die by crucifiction. This is why he had to have his legs broken to suffocate him- then lanced. The pieced side drew out fluids and blood. Scientificly this only happens when the person is dead.(the fluids)
4. Three days in a cold tomb embarlmed by heavy herbs and incense which was tradition is hardly what I call intensive care!