Separation of Church and State

[OpenedUp]

The Declaration of Independence mentions the "law's of nature and of Nature's God" and "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". Neither of these phrases points to any religion specifically, and certainly doesn't refer directly to the Christian God. (Which makes sense considering that Thomas Jefferson, the writer of the Declaration, was a Deist and NOT a Christian.)

The U.S. constitution contains no reference to any deity, God, Christianity, Jesus, or supreme being.

The first amendment of the Constitution clearly states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
---Thomas Jefferson commented on the 1st amendment calling it a"wall of separation between church and State."
---James Madison had also wrote that it was the establishment of "the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."

The "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary" more often called the "Treaty of Tripoli" said in its eleventh article that the the "Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". This treaty was approved and signed by John Adams and Secretary of State Timothy Pickering, passed unanimously through the Senate on June 7, 1797, and published to the public in The Philadelphia Gazette, all without concern about the article.

The pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist minister named Francis Bellamy in August of 1892.
It original read:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
---The words "the Flag of the United States of America" were added in 1923:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
---The words "under God" were not added until 1954 (during the McCarthy Era) following a campaign by the Knights of Columbus.

The term "In God we trust" was not added to coinage until after the Civil war. The term did not appear on paper currency until 1955.
---The term was declared as the official "National Motto" in 1956, replacing the unofficial motto of "E Pluribus Unum" (Out of many, one)

The "Lemon Test" established in 1971 (Lemon Vs. Kurtzman):
1. The government's action must have a legitimate secular purpose
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion
3.The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.


I've just heard a lot of "but the United States was founded as a Christian nation" kind of comments lately.

Can you really say that the U.S. is defined as being a Christian nation?

[Mark_W]

I would say the US was founded on very unchristian principles. But I'm sure that I'm working from a different definition of Christianity than yourself, as I'd say the US was founded as a "church" nation, meaning that the principles that were adopted into the constitution resemble more closely church doctrine and that general mindset, than they do Christianity.
But I hesitate to say that, simply because I think that Jefferson especially was a somewhere inbetween the church mindset and the Christian mindset.

[ShadowRishi]

The Declaration of Independence mentions the "law's of nature and of Nature's God" and "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights". Neither of these phrases points to any religion specifically, and certainly doesn't refer directly to the Christian God. (Which makes sense considering that Thomas Jefferson, the writer of the Declaration, was a Deist and NOT a Christian.)

The U.S. constitution contains no reference to any deity, God, Christianity, Jesus, or supreme being.

The first amendment of the Constitution clearly states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
---Thomas Jefferson commented on the 1st amendment calling it a"wall of separation between church and State."
---James Madison had also wrote that it was the establishment of "the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."

The "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary" more often called the "Treaty of Tripoli" said in its eleventh article that the the "Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". This treaty was approved and signed by John Adams and Secretary of State Timothy Pickering, passed unanimously through the Senate on June 7, 1797, and published to the public in The Philadelphia Gazette, all without concern about the article.

The pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist minister named Francis Bellamy in August of 1892.
It original read:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
---The words "the Flag of the United States of America" were added in 1923:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
---The words "under God" were not added until 1954 (during the McCarthy Era) following a campaign by the Knights of Columbus.

The term "In God we trust" was not added to coinage until after the Civil war. The term did not appear on paper currency until 1955.
---The term was declared as the official "National Motto" in 1956, replacing the unofficial motto of "E Pluribus Unum" (Out of many, one)

The "Lemon Test" established in 1971 (Lemon Vs. Kurtzman):
1. The government's action must have a legitimate secular purpose
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion
3.The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.


I've just heard a lot of "but the United States was founded as a Christian nation" kind of comments lately.

Can you really say that the U.S. is defined as being a Christian nation?

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." --Thomas Jefferson



"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." --Thomas Jefferson


"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills." --Thomas Jefferson


"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --Thomas Jefferson


"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." --Thomas Jefferson


"Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.." --James Madison

"the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced or knew that such a character existed." --Jefferson



"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement of England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of the Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law ... This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first Christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it ... That system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians." --Thomas Jefferson


"I am persuaded, you will permit me to observe that the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction. To this consideration we ought to ascribe the absence of any regulation, respecting religion, from the Magna-Charta of our country." --George Washington

[Easyrider]

Separation of Church and State? If the Founding Fathers thought there should be no mention or accomodations given to "religionists" in the government sector, then how do you account for all this:

The Danbury Baptist Letter, as Originally Drafted

The Library of Congress is grateful to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Laboratory for recovering the lines obliterated from the Danbury Baptist letter by Thomas Jefferson. He originally wrote "a wall of eternal separation between church and state," later deleting the word "eternal." He also deleted the phrase "the duties of my station, which are merely temporal." Jefferson must have been unhappy with the uncompromising tone of both of these phrases, especially in view of the implications of his decision, two days later, to begin attending church services in the House of Representatives.

Reserved Seats at Capitol Services

Here is a description, by an early Washington "insider," Margaret Bayard Smith (1778-1844), a writer and social critic and wife of Samuel Harrison Smith, publisher of the National Intelligencer, of Jefferson's attendance at church services in the House of Representatives: "Jefferson during his whole administration was a most regular attendant. The seat he chose the first day sabbath, and the adjoining one, which his private secretary occupied, were ever afterwards by the courtesy of the congregation, left for him."

Church Services in the Old House of Representatives

Church services were held in what is now called Statuary Hall from 1807 to 1857. The first services in the Capitol, held when the government moved to Washington in the fall of 1800, were conducted in the "hall" of the House in the north wing of the building. In 1801 the House moved to temporary quarters in the south wing, called the "Oven," which it vacated in 1804, returning to the north wing for three years. Services were conducted in the House until after the Civil War. The Speaker's podium was used as the preacher's pulpit.

A Millennialist Sermon Preached in Congress

This sermon on the millennium was preached by the Baltimore Swedenborgian minister, John Hargrove (1750-1839) in the House of Representatives. One of the earliest millennialist sermons preached before Congress was offered on July 4, 1801, by the Reverend David Austin (1759-1831), who at the time considered himself "struck in prophesy under the style of the Joshua of the American Temple." Having proclaimed to his Congressional audience the imminence of the Second Coming of Christ, Austin took up a collection on the floor of the House to support services at "Lady Washington's Chapel" in a nearby hotel where he was teaching that "the seed of the Millennial estate is found in the backbone of the American Revolution."

First Catholic Sermon in the House

On January 8, 1826, Bishop John England (1786-1842) of Charleston, South Carolina, became the first Catholic clergyman to preach in the House of Representatives. The overflow audience included President John Quincy Adams, whose July 4, 1821, speech England rebutted in his sermon.

Woman Preacher in the House (and call for revival!)

In 1827, Harriet Livermore (1788-1868), the daughter and granddaughter of Congressmen, became the second woman to preach in the House of Representatives. The first woman to preach before the House (and probably the first woman to speak officially in Congress under any circumstances) was the English evangelist, Dorothy Ripley (1767-1832), who conducted a service on January 12, 1806. Jefferson and Vice President Aaron Burr were among those in a "crowded audience." Sizing up the congregation, Ripley concluded that "very few" had been born again and broke into an urgent, camp meeting style exhortation, insisting that "Christ's Body was the Bread of Life and His Blood the drink of the righteous."

Communion Service in the Treasury Building

Manasseh Cutler here describes a four-hour communion service in the Treasury Building, conducted by a Presbyterian minister, the Reverend James Laurie: "Attended worship at the Treasury. Mr. Laurie alone. Sacrament. Full assembly. Three tables; service very solemn; nearly four hours."

Adams's Description of a Church Service in the Supreme Court

John Quincy Adams here describes the Reverend James Laurie, pastor of a Presbyterian Church that had settled into the Treasury Building, preaching to an overflow audience in the Supreme Court Chamber, which in 1806 was located on the ground floor of the Capitol.

The Old Supreme Court Chamber

Description of church services in the Supreme Court chamber by Manasseh Cutler (1804) and John Quincy Adams (1806) indicate that services were held in the Court soon after the government moved to Washington in 1800.

Church Services in Congress after the Civil War

Charles Boynton (1806-1883) was in 1867 chaplain of the House of Representatives and organizing pastor of the First Congregational Church in Washington, which was trying at that time to build its own sanctuary. In the meantime the church, as Boynton informed potential donors, was holding services "at the Hall of Representatives" where "the audience is the largest in town. . . .nearly 2000 assembled every Sabbath" for services, making the congregation in the House the "largest Protestant Sabbath audience then in the United States." The First Congregational Church met in the House from 1865 to 1868.

House of Representatives, After the Civil War

The House moved to its current location on the south side of the Capitol in 1857. It contained the "largest Protestant Sabbath audience" in the United States when the First Congregational Church of Washington held services there from 1865 to 1868.

Compliments: U.S. Library of Congress

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

[ShadowRishi]

Separation of Church and State? If the Founding Fathers thought there should be no mention or accomodations given to "religionists" in the government sector, then how do you account for all this:

The Danbury Baptist Letter, as Originally Drafted

The Library of Congress is grateful to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Laboratory for recovering the lines obliterated from the Danbury Baptist letter by Thomas Jefferson. He originally wrote "a wall of eternal separation between church and state," later deleting the word "eternal." He also deleted the phrase "the duties of my station, which are merely temporal." Jefferson must have been unhappy with the uncompromising tone of both of these phrases, especially in view of the implications of his decision, two days later, to begin attending church services in the House of Representatives.

That could have never been a coincidence...

Reserved Seats at Capitol Services

Here is a description, by an early Washington "insider," Margaret Bayard Smith (1778-1844), a writer and social critic and wife of Samuel Harrison Smith, publisher of the National Intelligencer, of Jefferson's attendance at church services in the House of Representatives: "Jefferson during his whole administration was a most regular attendant. The seat he chose the first day sabbath, and the adjoining one, which his private secretary occupied, were ever afterwards by the courtesy of the congregation, left for him."

Being religious does not make the country he founded, 'religious.'


Just like Newtonian mechanics is not "Christian" nor algebra "Islamic" or Einsteinian mechanics "deist".

It would serve you well to note the distinction between a man and his work.

Church Services in the Old House of Representatives

Church services were held in what is now called Statuary Hall from 1807 to 1857. The first services in the Capitol, held when the government moved to Washington in the fall of 1800, were conducted in the "hall" of the House in the north wing of the building. In 1801 the House moved to temporary quarters in the south wing, called the "Oven," which it vacated in 1804, returning to the north wing for three years. Services were conducted in the House until after the Civil War. The Speaker's podium was used as the preacher's pulpit.

It's not a-typical to allow groups --religious or otherwise-- to have access to public grounds during off-use time.

There's nothing new to this:

My cousin's old high school used to be used for my old church, back when I went, on Sundays. So since that church used the school on that off day, do you mean to propose to me that that school was founded upon Judeo-Christian morals?

Or that governments are made from homosexual ideology after homosexuals use public grounds to protest?

I'm sorry, that's a ridiculous conclusion.

A Millennialist Sermon Preached in Congress

This sermon on the millennium was preached by the Baltimore Swedenborgian minister, John Hargrove (1750-1839) in the House of Representatives. One of the earliest millennialist sermons preached before Congress was offered on July 4, 1801, by the Reverend David Austin (1759-1831), who at the time considered himself "struck in prophesy under the style of the Joshua of the American Temple." Having proclaimed to his Congressional audience the imminence of the Second Coming of Christ, Austin took up a collection on the floor of the House to support services at "Lady Washington's Chapel" in a nearby hotel where he was teaching that "the seed of the Millennial estate is found in the backbone of the American Revolution."

First Catholic Sermon in the House

On January 8, 1826, Bishop John England (1786-1842) of Charleston, South Carolina, became the first Catholic clergyman to preach in the House of Representatives. The overflow audience included President John Quincy Adams, whose July 4, 1821, speech England rebutted in his sermon.

You're not helping yourself here. Allowing disparaging religions (Catholicism and Protestantism) to preach is not evidence that America was founded upon Judeo-Christian morals.

It proves that the HoR entertained religious sermons --of largely disparaging content, because if you asked a Catholic what Judeo-Christian meant and what a Protestant what Judeo-Christian means, you're likely to end with a miniature WWIII. I'm going to assume that it happened on a Sunday --again, meaning that attendance was optional, and it was not officially supported by the United States. (Which would be silly to assume, because it would mean that the United States was simultaneously advocating Catholicism and Protestantism... Two very different beasts)


I personally think it treads a few constitutional bounds, but that doesn't mean that it is an endorsement of religion's involvement in government.

Woman Preacher in the House (and call for revival!)

In 1827, Harriet Livermore (1788-1868), the daughter and granddaughter of Congressmen, became the second woman to preach in the House of Representatives. The first woman to preach before the House (and probably the first woman to speak officially in Congress under any circumstances) was the English evangelist, Dorothy Ripley (1767-1832), who conducted a service on January 12, 1806. Jefferson and Vice President Aaron Burr were among those in a "crowded audience." Sizing up the congregation, Ripley concluded that "very few" had been born again and broke into an urgent, camp meeting style exhortation, insisting that "Christ's Body was the Bread of Life and His Blood the drink of the righteous."

Communion Service in the Treasury Building

Manasseh Cutler here describes a four-hour communion service in the Treasury Building, conducted by a Presbyterian minister, the Reverend James Laurie: "Attended worship at the Treasury. Mr. Laurie alone. Sacrament. Full assembly. Three tables; service very solemn; nearly four hours."

Adams's Description of a Church Service in the Supreme Court

John Quincy Adams here describes the Reverend James Laurie, pastor of a Presbyterian Church that had settled into the Treasury Building, preaching to an overflow audience in the Supreme Court Chamber, which in 1806 was located on the ground floor of the Capitol.

The Old Supreme Court Chamber

Description of church services in the Supreme Court chamber by Manasseh Cutler (1804) and John Quincy Adams (1806) indicate that services were held in the Court soon after the government moved to Washington in 1800.

Church Services in Congress after the Civil War

Charles Boynton (1806-1883) was in 1867 chaplain of the House of Representatives and organizing pastor of the First Congregational Church in Washington, which was trying at that time to build its own sanctuary. In the meantime the church, as Boynton informed potential donors, was holding services "at the Hall of Representatives" where "the audience is the largest in town. . . .nearly 2000 assembled every Sabbath" for services, making the congregation in the House the "largest Protestant Sabbath audience then in the United States." The First Congregational Church met in the House from 1865 to 1868.

House of Representatives, After the Civil War

The House moved to its current location on the south side of the Capitol in 1857. It contained the "largest Protestant Sabbath audience" in the United States when the First Congregational Church of Washington held services there from 1865 to 1868.

Compliments: U.S. Library of Congress

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

[/quote]


All explained by above.



Now, what you've proven is that our Forefathers were... religious. What you've failed to do is prove that, despite their own statements, they intended this government to be massively involved in government.



No, my friend, I think you've reinvented history.

[OpenedUp]

In discussion of Thomas Jefferson, I really wonder if you have studied anything of his religious ideals. I just find it funny that this "exhibition" tries to declare Jefferson as a deeply religious figure, but never cites any of his 40+letters and writings that declare exactly the opposite. Jefferson was a deist who accepted his religious titles by how HE defined them.

And I wonder if you have actually even read his letter to the Dansbury Baptists:

"Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802"

His intention is VERY clear. He clearly states his position as one against the mingling of religion and government. I don't really see how his alterations in any way take away from this sentiment, except to maybe lessen the blow to the Dansbury Baptists, who were going to be clearly upset by his proclamation.

The compilation from the Library of Congress also expressed a sentiment about how a baptist minister, named John Leland, who preached a sermon and then gave Jefferson a hunk of cheese. In the way it's used, it seems as if they are trying to say that Jefferson was connected to the religious order.
But this minister, named John Leland, was a very avid supporter of the separation of Church and State:
"The notion of a Christian commonwealth should be exploded forever. ... Government should protect every man in thinking and speaking freely, and see that one does not abuse another. The liberty I contend for is more than toleration. The very idea of toleration is despicable; it supposes that some have a pre-eminence above the rest to grant indulgence, whereas all should be equally free, Jews, Turks, Pagans and Christians."
---John Leland, "A Chronicle of His Time in Virginia," The Writings of the Later Elder John Leland, published in 1845


Also, when looking into all of this a little further, I found it interesting that these church services that were held at the Capitol building actually started BEFORE Congress actually moved into it. It is also interesting to not that NO OTHER CHURCH was established in Washington at the time, as John Adams said in 1803: "There is no church of any denomination in this city."

Congress did not establish these weekly church services as you would imply.

[Easyrider]

Also, when looking into all of this a little further, I found it interesting that these church services that were held at the Capitol building actually started BEFORE Congress actually moved into it. It is also interesting to not that NO OTHER CHURCH was established in Washington at the time, as John Adams said in 1803: "There is no church of any denomination in this city."

Congress did not establish these weekly church services as you would imply.

The point is they held church services in numerous goverment buildings from the earliest times on until just after the Civil War. So they obviously had a much different interpretation of the "Separation of Church and State" than what we see being discussed today.

[ShadowRishi]

The point is they held church services in numerous goverment buildings from the earliest times on until just after the Civil War. So they obviously had a much different interpretation of the "Separation of Church and State" than what we see being discussed today.

I have dealt with this misconception; please discuss it or move on.

[Easyrider]

The point is they held church services in numerous goverment buildings from the earliest times on until just after the Civil War. So they obviously had a much different interpretation of the "Separation of Church and State" than what we see being discussed today.

I have dealt with this misconception; please discuss it or move on.

You think you did. But the US Library of Congress confirms these services in government buildings. And they often included a number of the founding fathers, who didn't seem to think anything was wrong with it.

[ShadowRishi]

You think you did. But the US Library of Congress confirms these services in government buildings. And they often included a number of the founding fathers, who didn't seem to think anything was wrong with it.

Well, at least at the end of the day I can be thankful that I'm not deluded and brainwashed.