Christianity and free will

Post by **otseng** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:09 am

If God knows everything, then how can man have a free will?

Sleeper · Post by **Sleeper** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:18 pm

That is almost as hard a question to answer as "What is the meaning of life"

CanadianBuddhist · Post by **CanadianBuddhist** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 1:57 pm

A simple answer might be that there is no god in the sense of a supreme, all-knowing, all-powerful being with an existence that is separate from everything else that exists.

Post by **otseng** » Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:12 pm

CanadianBuddhist wrote:A simple answer might be that there is no god in the sense of a supreme, all-knowing, all-powerful being with an existence that is separate from everything else that exists.

That's a simple answer?! I'm not sure what that answer really means.

But, I've got an answer myself for this topic.

First off, I believe that we humans have a free will. Or least it appears that we have a free will. I can choose any course of action and think that it is I who have made the final decision.

Second, I believe that God does know everything. Or at least the Bible says that God knows everything.

Psa 139:2-6
"Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted [with] all my ways. For [there is] not a word in my tongue, [but], lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. [Such] knowledge [is] too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot [attain] unto it."

So, is there a logical contradiction between God knowing everything and me having a free will? No.

Assuming that God is outside of space and time (pretty reasonable assumption since God created space and time), God is not limited by space and time. He can "see" anything at any point in space and time.

For example, suppose you are looking at a calendar. You can see your appointments 6 months away, even though you have not actually experienced what has happened yet. But instead of a calendar, it is the actual events that God sees.

Everybody still has a free choice, but God can see everything cause He is outside of space and time.

Piper Plexed · Post by **Piper Plexed** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:30 am

If God knows everything, then how can man have a free will?

Operates from the assumption that we are separate from God. For me of course Gods knows all that I know as it is part of me. For me God is part of my essence (spiritually) in the same sense that my children are of my husbands and my essence (genetics). When I do not follow what in my soul is the right or true course of action in my life (free will aspect of my nature) my body tells me. I may experience nausea a headache, anger, a general feeing of unease, if I am not being true to myself. I guess I don't see it as a master plan more like being. There is Joy and Love in being true to ones higher nature, it is the only place I have found happiness as well as blessings, they are abundant and prayers are answered.

DeoxyriboNucleicAcid · Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:53 am

otseng wrote:
CanadianBuddhist wrote:A simple answer might be that there is no god in the sense of a supreme, all-knowing, all-powerful being with an existence that is separate from everything else that exists.
That's a simple answer?! I'm not sure what that answer really means.

But, I've got an answer myself for this topic.

First off, I believe that we humans have a free will. Or least it appears that we have a free will. I can choose any course of action and think that it is I who have made the final decision.

Second, I believe that God does know everything. Or at least the Bible says that God knows everything.

Psa 139:2-6
"Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted [with] all my ways. For [there is] not a word in my tongue, [but], lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. [Such] knowledge [is] too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot [attain] unto it."

So, is there a logical contradiction between God knowing everything and me having a free will? No.

Assuming that God is outside of space and time (pretty reasonable assumption since God created space and time), God is not limited by space and time. He can "see" anything at any point in space and time.

For example, suppose you are looking at a calendar. You can see your appointments 6 months away, even though you have not actually experienced what has happened yet. But instead of a calendar, it is the actual events that God sees.

Everybody still has a free choice, but God can see everything cause He is outside of space and time.

A God who exists outside of time and yet IN all times precludes freewill. I'll try to explain why: As God exists in tomorrow He is seeing right now behave as I will behave. As He has already seen me act in a specific way tomorrow I can no more change what He has seen me do tomorrow than I can change what He saw me do yesterday.
God cannot be wrong, we are told, so if I did somehow manage to change what He has already seen me do He would have been in error.
Having seen all of my tomorrows (indeed all His own tomorrows) there is nothing I can do to alter what an inerrant God has seen me do and therefore I cannot behave in any other way. I can have no freewill. Further, as God Himself has seen all of His tomorrows He can have no freewill either.
Daft ideas and paradoxes erupt everywhere when you examine religious beliefs, eh?

Post by **otseng** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:00 am

DeoxyriboNucleicAcid wrote: A God who exists outside of time and yet IN all times precludes freewill. I'll try to explain why: As God exists in tomorrow He is seeing right now behave as I will behave. As He has already seen me act in a specific way tomorrow I can no more change what He has seen me do tomorrow than I can change what He saw me do yesterday.

Suppose you are able to look backward in time and see what people have done (shouldn't be too hard). Does the fact that you can look backward in time and see what people have done preclude them from free will? No. God in the same way can look forward in time and yet we still can have free will. Remember, God is outside of time. If God were limited by time, then yes, I can see your logic. But seeing things in our past or in our future is the same for God.

CanadianBuddhist · Post by **CanadianBuddhist** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 1:47 pm

Everyone makes this more complicated than it needs to be. The fact is, if you forget everything from the bible, what proof of a god do you have? none. Does god talk to you? Do you see him? no. Everyone wants to believe that there is a supreme being watching over them. No one takes responsibility for their own lives. If there is a god, why should that matter.

RavEMasteR · Post by **RavEMasteR** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:49 am

If we had freewill, God would not have created time to regulate what happens.

If we had free will, God will not be all knowing, because we would be unpredictable.

If we had free will, there should be no such thing as fate.

Post by **otseng** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:51 am

CanadianBuddhist wrote:Everyone makes this more complicated than it needs to be. The fact is, if you forget everything from the bible, what proof of a god do you have? none. Does god talk to you? Do you see him? no. Everyone wants to believe that there is a supreme being watching over them. No one takes responsibility for their own lives. If there is a god, why should that matter.

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