Civil and engaging debate on Christianity and religious issues
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Colter First Post |
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:06 pm Post subject: Adam and Eve were not the first human pair ? |
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Adam and Eve were not the first human pair. There are clues to this in Genesis right of the bat:
4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Who is everyone if Cain is No.3 ?
4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
Again who is the any thats gonna find him?
4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Who was Nod that this land was named after. I know but I'll tell ya later.
4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
How did Cain find a wife in the land of Nod if he was No. 3. Seth, Cains (future) brother was born 130 years after Adam. Seth was 105 when he became a father? Enosh, Seths son was 90 befor he had kids
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants [nephilim] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Oh my, It appears the (sons) of God were mating with people. (sons)? 
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virago81 Newbie
Joined: 01 Dec 2004 Total posts: 8 Location: Atlanta, GA Gender: Undisclosed
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Post 61:
Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:50 am Post subject: Dashing Babies Against Rocks |
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| Quote: | Quote:
How much faith should you put in a book that instructs thus:
"Happy shall he be who taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." Psalms 137:9
Are you really implying that this pertains to people in general?
This is taken out of context and the depth of the meaning has been lost, as it has nothing to do with people becoming happy by smashing babies on rocks... |
I think there may be two misunderstandings here and a new Psalm.
First the new Psalm:
"Miserable is he who finds joy in posting flamebait and trolls because he hath no other joy but to provoke people. Happy is the moderator who smasheth thy posts on the rocks" (Original poster, are you listening?)
Now the misunderstandings:
1. The passage certainly does convey the desire for revenge against the Babylonians by wishing that someone would dash their babies against rocks.
The Psalmist was hopping mad that the Babylonians had sacked Jerusalem , destroyed the Israelite temple and carried the Israelites off in to captivity.
(Compared to the genocide committed by the Israelites on the Amalekites and the citizens of Jericho, however, this is actually quite mild.)
But...
2. In this passage, the Bible is not instructing people to smash babies. The Psalm is simply recording the feelings of a particular psalmist at a particular time.
In the same way, in Psalm 22, when the psalmist says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me", it seems to be simply recording the feeling of the Psalmist, and not making some theological point about the fact that God has actually left him.
I'm not a theologian, but I don't think every propositional statement in the Bible can be taken to be an instruction from God. |
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Quemtal Student Joined: 07 Feb 2005 Total posts: 32 Location: Australia Age: 24 Gender: Male
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Post 62:
Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Just to reiterate:
| Quote: | Colter, R.E. your initial posting.
I find it interesting that you quote the Bible as saying Adam and Eve begat Cain and Able, that Cain married, and went into the Land of Nod; but it's the same Bible that says Adam was the first man.
You cannot use the Bible to infer that God created humans before Adam and Eve, when the selfsame Bible explicitly states that Adam was FIRST. |
No one answered my quiery. Just looking for the answer. Cheers. |
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t Student
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Post 63:
Wed May 04, 2005 9:33 pm Post subject: Adam and Eve were not the first human pair ? |
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Since Adam lived several hundred years, having lots of children was not a problem. The Genesis account does not tell us about the order of the births nor does it tell us how old they were. By having many children it is certainly possible that there were many women around. This would mean that Cain married either a sister or a niece or some other relation. Of course at this point, the question of inbreeding is raised. But it is not a problem early on in the human race because the genetic line was so pure. Therefore, the prohibition against incest was not proclaimed until much much later (Lev. 18:6-18).
This answer was posted on the following site. www.carm.org |
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Dilettante Sage
Joined: 19 Dec 2004 Total posts: 950 Location: Spain Age: 45 Gender: Male
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Post 64:
Thu May 05, 2005 7:51 am Post subject: |
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Adam is a literary character in an epic (Genesis). It would be naive to take his age literally. Humans do not live that long, not even today with all the medical advances at our disposal.
It takes more than just two people to successfully populate a planet. Otherwise the risk of such a small population being wiped out by disease, accidents, etc, is too high. I don't understand what you mean by the genetic line being "pure". |
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| Lotan Guru
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Post 65:
Thu May 05, 2005 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Dilettante wrote: | | I don't understand what you mean by the genetic line being "pure". |
Creationists believe that Adam was some sort of Platonic ideal, but they have no idea what that actually means genetically. I had a nasty encounter with a creationist on the "Testability" thread who made a similar claim regarding Noah. Although he was unable to explain himself, Jose provided some interesting possibilities. |
_________________ And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14 |
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Ilurk Student Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Total posts: 21 Gender: Undisclosed
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Post 66:
Thu May 05, 2005 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry to intrude on this on going discussion of biblical arcana, but is there any physical evidence (archeological, palaeontological, etc.) that Adam and Eve existed? |
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gluadys Student
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Post 67:
Sat May 07, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Ilurk wrote: | | Sorry to intrude on this on going discussion of biblical arcana, but is there any physical evidence (archeological, palaeontological, etc.) that Adam and Eve existed? |
No, there isn't.
Furthermore, if a couple named Adam & Eve existed some 6,000 years ago, they would be only one of thousands of similar couples in their species. Even if you push "Adam & Eve" back to the first H. sapiens this would be true, as species don't ordinarily begin as a single couple, but as a population group.
So it makes far more sense to treat the names as typological. "Adam" literally means "human being; man" in Hebrew and "Eve" means "life". There is no place in the first four chapters of Genesis where it is necessary to translate "ha-adam" (the man) as a proper name. The only verse in the whole OT when "Adam" is used as a name for a person is in the genealogies in Gen. 5 and in 1 Chronicles. Even there, it could be translated as "the man" (generically or typologically rather than personally). The only other references in the OT to Adam refer to a city not a person.
In the NT, the noun "ha-adam" is transliterated into the Greek. It is used especially by Paul in his contrasts of "the first Adam" and "the second Adam" i.e. Christ. These contrasts also do not necessarily imply a single, historical person named Adam, but are easily interpreted as contrasting an "Adam-type" humanity with a "Christ-type" humanity of which Jesus of Nazareth was the first incarnate instance. |
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dj Student Joined: 15 Mar 2006 Total posts: 12 Gender: Undisclosed
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Post 68:
Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: Eden |
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| mm |
Last edited by dj on Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:03 am; edited 3 times in total |
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bernee51 Site SupporterSavant
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Post 69:
Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Eden |
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Hi back at you - and welcome
| dj wrote: |
Also after researching and studying the Bible code 2. I realised the author really discovered the Cyprus expedition and the discovery of 1st Eden of Cyprus. In the book The author says that all the codes stop or complete in 2006. |
There is an old truism in beaurocracies - never start an enquiry without having a clear plan of the answers in mind. Seek and you will find what you want (or plan) to find.
On what basis can it be said that any 'scripture' - be it the bible, UB or the Epic of Gilgamesh - are factual?
| dj wrote: |
Somehow I think in this time, regardless of our opinions we have to be on our guard because this is the time we are entering the process of Epochal change. |
There is certainly the potential for 'Epochal change' - all of it brought about by our species effect on the planet. I doubt the interference or action of any "judges of the superuniverse'
| dj wrote: |
What ever is wrong in our lives that we know deep in our hearts we have to get right because we have to prepare in case this eventuates soon. |
Yeah - some environmental awareness by the grossest polluters of the planet would be a startis
| dj wrote: |
Anyway I feel the signs are showing themselves. |
Any meteorologist can confirm that. |
_________________ "When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."
Nisargadatta Maharaj |
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dj Student Joined: 15 Mar 2006 Total posts: 12 Gender: Undisclosed
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Post 70:
Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: Eden |
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| mm |
Last edited by dj on Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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