Do Black Holes Exist? Are Black Holes Scientific?

[chrispalasz]

I wasn't sure where to ask this question, but it is related to the "Do you believe in Santa" thread, which is under the Christian topic, so I posted this one here too.

For Clarification: Black Holes are often discussed in science. There are many new and interesting theories being developed on them every day. Black Holes are not observable.

If God is going to be dismissed from possibility because such observable evidence cannot be produced - then Black Holes must also be dismissed from possibility.

So, for the same reasons - only with an opposite objective, let's ask these questions:

Do Black Holes exist?

Are Black Holes Scientific?

Cheers. 8)

[Trebors1989]

Black holes do exist. We have not seen black holes but we have observed them, just as we observe air, by noting their affect on things around them. This is how most scientific discoveries work.

[Corvus]

For observational evidence on black holes, go here. Quite interesting.

[chrispalasz]

Corvus:

A quote from the website you linked:

Almost certainly this object is a black hole.

Almost certianly?

Black Holes cannot be seen.

If We Can't See Them, How Do We Know They're There?

Since black holes are small (only a few to a few tens of kilometers in size), and light that would allow us to see them cannot escape, a black hole floating alone in space would be hard, if not impossible, to see. For instance, the photograph above shows the optical companion star to the (invisible) black hole candidate Cyg X-1.

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/scien ... holes.html

Seeing the unseen
Black holes can't be seen, because everything that falls into them, including light, is trapped. But the swift motions of gas and stars near an otherwise invisible object allows astronomers to calculate that it's a black hole and even to estimate its mass.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6494680/

Trebors1989: Black holes do exist. We have not seen black holes but we have observed them, just as we observe air, by noting their affect on things around them. This is how most scientific discoveries work.

Really? That's cool. That's how I know God exists too. 8)

God does exist. We have not seen God but we have observed Him, just as we observe air, by noting His affect on things around Him. This is how most scientific discoveries work.

God is no more fiction than so many of our scientific notions. He is no less real, either. All the laws as we know them break down in Quantum Physics.

I'm not saying that God exists BECAUSE the laws break down. I'm saying that the laws break down BECAUSE God exists.

I love science and I love Physics. 8)

[Trebors1989]

I may be an atheist, but I truly do not know whether or not god exists. I do not know because science can not disprove it. However, by using the scientific method (the basic laws that govern scientific proof) Scientists have yet to prove that any gods do exist.

[potwalloper.]

Greenlight311 wrote

For Clarification: Black Holes are often discussed in science. There are many new and interesting theories being developed on them every day. Black Holes are not observable.

If God is going to be dismissed from possibility because such observable evidence cannot be produced - then Black Holes must also be dismissed from possibility.

So, for the same reasons - only with an opposite objective, let's ask these questions:

Do Black Holes exist?

Are Black Holes Scientific?

I can see where you are coming from Greenlight, however there are a number of fundamental differences between a belief in God and a belief in black holes.

Black hole existence has a theoretical basis and as such is seen as the best explanation of the observation of effects in the vicinity of these black holes at this point in time. If a better explanation of these effects is provided then the theory of black holes will be discarded and the new theory accepted. This has happened on many occasions in science.

The existence of God is seen by believers as a fact and no matter how much evidence is provided to the contrary believers in god will retain their faith in god. As such belief in god is rigid not flexible and is based on faith not on evidence.

Whilst it is true that black holes cannot be observed directly this applies to other things in science - the location of a subatomic particle cannot be determined at any point in time due to the uncertainty principle - this does not mean that subatomic particles do not exist; if this was the case then I could not be typing this entry now!

The key issue here is that there is a theory that explains the existence of black holes - where they came from (collapsing stars) and their likely characteristics. There is no theory that explains how god came into existence, and also god has no measurable effects from which his/her existence can be inferred, so the two cannot be compared and to do so would involve the use of flawed logic.

...and the existence of the universe and the content of the bible are not measurable or observable "effects" in a scientific sense.

Whilst you are not comparing like with like when you compare a belief in black holes (accepted as a probability by scientists but not as a fact) with a belief in god (defended as an absolute truth by believers) you are comparing like with like when you equate a belief in santa with a belief in god. Both are mythical beings. Both have similar provenance. There is no evidence or theoretical basis explaining their existence.

Sorry but all scientific theories may be subject to alteration - that is the entire basis of scientific investigation. It may be highly probable that black holes exist but minds remain open on this as knowledge increases. It is highly improbable that god exists - but believers' minds remain closed on this - god will exist no matter what in the minds of believers...

...but then science is logical - religion is not...

God does exist. We have not seen God but we have observed Him, just as we observe air, by noting His affect on things around Him. This is how most scientific discoveries work.

Interesting. How have we observed him/her/it? What effects are these exactly? I know of no observable effects from which the existence of god can be inferred - indeed there is no objective evidence and never has been throughout the history of mankind that god exists in any sense other than conceptual.

We can, of course, argue that concepts exist in the minds of those who conceive them but that is a rather limited degree of existence for a god being...

When I say this you need to remember that references to bibilical scripts to me have no more weighting than references to Peter Pan stories or tales of Robin Hood. Unverifiable texts are not objective evidence...

God is no more fiction than so many of our scientific notions. He is no less real, either. All the laws as we know them break down in Quantum Physics.

Please list the theoretical basis of an existence of god together with the experiments that have been carried out to verify this. It would be useful if this theory also explained the origin of god. If you are going to debate that belief in god is the same as belief in scientifically verified physical phenomena then you need to use scientific methodologies to support the statement. And please - no psuedoscience!

[bernee51]

God does exist. We have not seen God but we have observed Him, just as we observe air, by noting His affect on things around Him.

Please provide examples, references and peer reviews of the observed effects of your god.

This is how most scientific discoveries work.

You said it.

[Corvus]

Corvus:

A quote from the website you linked:

Almost certainly this object is a black hole.

Almost certianly?

I am not sure why you bolded "Almost" since every discovery in science is an almost. But clearly, if one sees something sucking absolutely everything into itself with incredible power, an incredible power by which we can calculate a huge mass... well, there's something there with huge mass and incredible power. Now's your chance to prove what are God's effects on this universe. Indubitably, they won't be nearly as dramatic.

[chrispalasz]

Corvus: But clearly, if one sees something sucking absolutely everything into itself with incredible power, an incredible power by which we can calculate a huge mass... well, there's something there with huge mass and incredible power.

That's my point. We don't see "something sucking absolutely everything into itself with incredible power, an incredible power by which we can calculate a huge mass". That's exactly it. We see nothing doing that. We see nothing. There's a big difference. Also - we don't see anything actually being sucked in. We have never actually seen anything being sucked into what we call a black hole. We have only seen the immense gravitational effects on the bodies that surround what we call a black hole.

Even if we were to see large bodies being "sucked in". We wouldn't know if those bodies were being "sucked in" to anything or if they were simply disappearing at a certain point in space. There's no way to tell.

Corvus: Now's your chance to prove what are God's effects on this universe. Indubitably, they won't be nearly as dramatic.

Hahaha - seriously ? That's the whole point! The effects of God on this universe are infinitely larger, more complex, and more incredible than the effects of the Black Hole!!! Why do you think it's so hard for Christians to understand why everyone doesn't see it?

The effects of God are the answers to questions such as:
1. Why does life exist?
2. Why do black holes exist? Why do stars exist?
3. Why do the 4 forces we know of exist? Why can't we unify them?
4. Why do all laws as we know them completely break down in quantum mechanics?

Three are millions more questions where those came from. The list is endless. God holds the answers.

bernee51: Please provide examples, references and peer reviews of the observed effects of your god.

I most certainly will post examples of the effects of Jesus Christ on this universe. I, myself, see Him every single day, as do so many other Christians. You requested it.

potwalloper: I'll get to your response later. I'm short on time now. I can tell you that I can offer the very same "scientific evidence" for God as scientists can offer for the black hole. This will be the framework of my response post. If you want to deny the evidence that exists for black holes, then you may also deny the evidence I will present. 8)

[Trebors1989]

Most Atheists and Agnostics use science in their conclusions.(Which is why I believe your god may exist, but I am not positive that it does.) However most Theists use feeling and evidence that is backed by no scientific proof. Most of the "undeniably true" events in the bible can be explained in ways that have only been discovered after these passages have been put into your Bible." I am saying let's use more logic in our debates.

"It is entirely because such thoughts are so comforting and so exhilarating, and so remove us from the otherwise dreadful thought of death, that the afterlife is accepted by the vast majority, even in the absolute absence of any evidence for its existence."--Isaac Asimov