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What is the Logos?

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What is the Logos? 
Author: Checkpoint 
Posted: 05/03/2016 04:47 AM 
 
I am referring to John's first chapter, where he introduces a Greek philosophical concept called "the Logos" which is usually translated as "the Word".

Who really understands, who can explain, what John wrote in these verses?


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing that exists came into being.


God is with God? What??

Just philosophical ideas? And if so, to convey what to his readers?

Two Gods?


Re: What is the Logos? 
Author: YahDough 
Posted: 05/03/2016 01:19 PM 
 
[quote="Checkpoint"]









Quote:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing that exists came into being.











Quote:
God is with God? What??


Yes The Son is with the Father. All things were created through the Son and for the Son. The Son is Lord God.









Quote:
Just philosophical ideas? And if so, to convey what to his readers?


More than philosophy. God came in the flesh to dwell with His creation.









Quote:
Two Gods?


Sort of. One God and one Lord God: God the Source and God the Administrator.

God is the Spirit of the Word.
Jesus is the Word made flesh.


Re: What is the Logos? 
Author: JehovahsWitness 
Posted: 05/03/2016 01:40 PM 
 
[Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

LOGOS is Greek for "Word"* and John explains who he is refering by saying

“So the Word* became flesh and resided among us [as the Lord Jesus Christ], and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father.” (Joh 1:14)

So I believe The Logos here is referring to JESUS.



JEHOVAHS WITNESS


Re: What is the Logos? 
Author: Pierac 
Posted: 05/03/2016 02:30 PM 
 








Checkpoint wrote:

I am referring to John's first chapter, where he introduces a Greek philosophical concept called "the Logos" which is usually translated as "the Word".

Who really understands, who can explain, what John wrote in these verses?


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing that exists came into being.


God is with God? What??

Just philosophical ideas? And if so, to convey what to his readers?

Two Gods?


John 1:1

I have another train of thought for you to think about. Is what you're reading into John 1 mostly church tradition? For almost 400 years, we have a read John 1 through the eyes of the Catholic Church. (reinforcing the Trinity). In the New Testament, "the Word" (Logos) happens to be of the masculine gender. Therefore, it's pronoun -"he" in our English translations - is a matter of interpretation, not translation. Did John write concerning "the word" that "he" was in the beginning with God or did he write concerning "the word" that "it" was in the beginning with God? As already stated, in the NT Greek the logos or word is masculine noun. It is okay in English to use "he" to refer back to his masculine noun if there is good contextual reason to do so. But is there good reason to make "the word" a "he" here?

The English translations of the Greek text before the King James version of 1611 actually read this way: ( notice Him and He are now "It").

Tyndale 1534:
Joh 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. 2 The same was in the beginnynge with God. 3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made. 4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men

Bishops 1568:
Joh 1:1 In the begynnyng was the worde, & the worde was with God: and that worde was God. 2 The same was in the begynnyng with God. 3 All thynges were made by it: and without it, was made nothyng that was made. 4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men,

Geneva 1587:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God. 2 This same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was life, and that life was the light of men.

And now our modern Concordant Literal Version:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " 2 This was in the beginning toward God. 3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." 4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."

The word logos appears many, many more times in this very Gospel of John. And nowhere else do the translators capitalize it or use the masculine personal pronoun "he" to agree with it! The rest of the New Testament is the same. Logos is variously translated as "statement" (Luke 20:20), "question" (Matt 21:24), "preaching" (1 Tim 5:17), "command" (Gal 5:14), "message" (Luke 4:32), "matter" (Acts 15:6), "reason" (Acts 10:29), so there is actually no reason to make John one say that "the Word" is the person Jesus himself, unless of course the translators are wanting to make a point to. In all cases logos is an "it."

In the light of this background it is far better to read John's prologue to mean that in the beginning God had a plan, a dream, a grand vision for the world, a reason by which He brought all things into being. This word or plan was expressive of who he is.

"The Word" for John is an "it" not a "he." On one occasion, Jesus is given the name "the word of God" and this is in Revelations 19:13. This name has been given to him after his resurrection and ascension, but we will not find it before his birth. It is not until we come to verse 14 of John's prologue that this logos becomes personal and becomes the son of God, Jesus. "And the Word became flesh." A great plan that God had in his heart from before the creation at last is fulfilled. Be very clear that it does not say that God became flesh. There is even strong evidence suggest the John himself reacted to those who were already misusing his gospel to mean that Jesus was himself the Word who had personally preexist the world. When later he wrote his introduction to 1 John, he clearly made the point that what was in the beginning was not a "who" he put it this way: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the word of life"


Logos - This word is translated in English as "Word". It is not as some would have you believe Jesus' middle name. Jesus is not called Jesus Logos of Nazareth. This word has an actual meaning which has been almost completely lost due to the Greek philosophical interpretation of John 1:1-3 & 14.

"I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God."

Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God. Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing. Word of God in this verse means God's plan of salvation for us (NAB), i.e. the kingdom of God message. So what does "logos" mean?

Logos - 1. Denotes an internal reasoning process, plan, or intention, as well as an external word. 2. The expression of thought. As embodying a conception or idea (NAB & VED).

I will give you a brief paraphrase of John 1:1-3 using the definitions for "logos:"

"In the beginning was God's plan, will, or idea for our salvation. It was present in his mind, and God's plan or will possessed all the attributes of God."

The very Trinitarian Roman Catholic New American Bible has this comment on this verse:

"Lack of a definite article with "God" in Greek signifies predication rather than identification."

Predication - to affirm as a quality or attribute (Webster's Dictionary).

So how does the Word (logos) become flesh in John 1:14? Let me use an example which most of us can relate to. We are all familiar with the expression, "was this baby planned?" Let's say it was planned. You and your wife had a plan to have a baby. You had a logos, a plan. Your plan (logos) became flesh the day that your baby was born. In the same way, God's plan of salvation for us became a reality, became flesh, when Jesus was born. This verse is probably one of the biggest culprits in the creation of the trinity. The reason being that to someone educated in Greek philosophy such as the early church fathers of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th, centuries, logos had an entirely different meaning. Tertullian who was responsible for much of the creation of the trinity was a Stoic lawyer. The Stoics defined "logos" as the "divine principle of life." Which is basically a definition of God. With this definition you are going to arrive at a completely different interpretation than what John intended. You will interpret it something like this:

"In the beginning was the divine principle of life, and the divine principle of life was with God, and the divine principle of life was God. Then, the divine principle of life became flesh."

With this definition you arrive at the conclusion that the divine principle of life, which is God, became flesh. Now you have God's essence in two places at once. The explanation for this obvious problem came in the form of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Then you have God's essence in flesh, so the description of Jesus becomes that he is fully God and fully man. These concepts come straight out of Greek philosophy. Greek philosophers believed that man was composed of flesh and a divine spark.

You decide which definition is correct, Greek philosophy's or John's Jewish definition.

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, He is not the Logos!


1Jn 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

What does scripture teach you about... What was from the beginning?

Pay attention as we need to get a little deeper comparing both John 1:1 with 1 John 1:1


John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word." 1 John 1:1 – "What was from the beginning, what we have heard."

Notice that in John what is from the beginning is the word, and in 1 John what is from the beginning is something that they heard (a message) .

Look closely...


1 John 2:7 - "Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard."

In 1 John 1:1 what was from the beginning is something that they heard, here in 1 John 2:7 the old commandment is what they have had from the beginning, (sound familiar?) and the old commandment is the "WORD" that they what? Heard! The same as in 1 John 1:1.

So, What commandment is John speaking about?

John is speaking about what Jesus called the greatest commandment, ( Mark 12:29-30 ) the commandment of love which God gave the Hebrews from the beginning. The message of love that the proclamation of the Kingdom of God brings with it.

How do we know for sure that this is the message and/or the commandment that they heard from the beginning? Because John tells you so in 1 John 3:11 and 1 John 3:23:

"For this is the message you have HEARD from the BEGINNING: we should love one another."

"And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another."

Loving one another is how the world will know that we are followers of God’s Christ.

John 13:30 – "This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

According to Paul (Romans 13:9), the law of love is the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law and it is the Law in the coming Kingdom of God which the Messiah has come to proclaim. These are Jesus’ own words.

John is talking about the message or Logos (known by you as “word”!)

By making John 1 a Trinity support verse, you lose so much truth!


Paul Study


Re: What is the Logos? 
Author: Yahu 
Posted: 05/03/2016 03:58 PM 
 








Checkpoint wrote:

I am referring to John's first chapter, where he introduces a Greek philosophical concept called "the Logos" which is usually translated as "the Word".

Who really understands, who can explain, what John wrote in these verses?


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing that exists came into being.


God is with God? What??

Just philosophical ideas? And if so, to convey what to his readers?

Two Gods?



You have to understand what "word" John was talking about. Look at Gen 1:1 in the Hebrew. There is a word there that is used twice that is not translated into English. It is the word 'et' (aleph-tav). It is used as a pointer to the action of the verb and has no usage in English. It is through the 'aleph-tav' that creation came into being.

Aleph is the paleo-hebrew symbol of a bulls head and is the first Hebrew letter. It means 'strong' and is the symbol also of a sacrificial animal. It is the starting letter of most of the titles and references to Yah in words like 'El', 'Elohyim', 'Eloah', 'Elyon',...

Tav is the paleo-hebrew symbol of a cross and is the last Hebrew letter. It means 'covenant'.

So Aleph-tav in Hebrew would be 'Alpha-Omega', the first and the last, if it were presented in Greek. In combination the Paleo-hebrew word meaning is 'strength [of the] covenant' or 'sacrificial animal [on the] cross'. It is a picture of Yeshua presented in Gen 1:1, ie 'in the beginning'. The Jews call the book of Genesis, 'Barashit', ie 'In the Beginning'.

Gen 1:1
Barashit (in front/beginning) bara (create) Elohyim (YHVY) ET (aleph-tav symbolizing Yeshua) HaShammayim (the heavens) vET ('and ET', the vav at the front is just the conjunction 'and' with the 2nd usage of ET) HaErats (the earth).

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word John is referring to is 'aleph-tav', the 'alpha-omega' in Gen 1:1 that all creation was brought into being through.
Elohyim -> created through aleph-tav -> the heavens.
Elohyim -> created through aleph-tav -> the earth.

The aleph-tav of Gen 1:1 is a picture of Yeshua at the very beginning.

It is also interesting that it has 2 uses and the placement of those uses in the passage. The 2 uses corresponds with Yeshua's 2 comings. It is the fourth word and Yeshua came after the 4000 years since creation. It is also at the end of the 6th compound word 'vET'. We expect His return right before the 1000 year millennial kingdom. That is the 1000 year Sabbath. So His coming back at the end of the 6000th year right at the tribulation before the 1000 year Sabbath. That completes the week of creation of 1000 year days and to Yah a day is as 1000 years.


Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega (Aleph and Tav), the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Re: What is the Logos? 
Author: Checkpoint 
Posted: 05/03/2016 04:17 PM 
 
[Replying to post 5 by Yahu]









Quote:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word John is referring to is 'aleph-tav', the 'alpha-omega' in Gen 1:1 that all creation was brought into being through.
Elohyim -> created through aleph-tav -> the heavens.
Elohyim -> created through aleph-tav -> the earth.

The aleph-tav of Gen 1:1 is a picture of Yeshua at the very beginning.




Sorry, I probably don't get what you are saying.

Yeshua was with Yahweh, God was with God?

Is "a picture of Yeshua", Yeshua the Person?


Re: What is the Logos? 
Author: Yahu 
Posted: 05/03/2016 04:24 PM 
 








Checkpoint wrote:

[Replying to post 5 by Yahu]









Quote:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word John is referring to is 'aleph-tav', the 'alpha-omega' in Gen 1:1 that all creation was brought into being through.
Elohyim -> created through aleph-tav -> the heavens.
Elohyim -> created through aleph-tav -> the earth.

The aleph-tav of Gen 1:1 is a picture of Yeshua at the very beginning.




Sorry, I probably don't get what you are saying.

Yeshua was with Yahweh, God was with God?

Is "a picture of Yeshua", Yeshua the Person?


Yeshua was present at the creation. He is the manifestation of the physical form of Elohyim and it was through Yeshua that all the heavens and earth came into being.

I see Yeshua as the physical body of the godhead, the Father as the soul of the godhead and the Holy Spirit as the communications between the soul and the body. Man is made in His image, three parts body/soul/spirit.

The Paleo-hebrew meaning of YHVH is 'arm/hand', 'behold', 'nail', 'behold', as in 'behold the nail [pierced] hand', it is also a reference to Yeshua.


Re: What is the Logos? 
Author: Checkpoint 
Posted: 05/03/2016 04:30 PM 
 








JehovahsWitness wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

LOGOS is Greek for "Word"* and John explains who he is refering by saying

“So the Word* became flesh and resided among us [as the Lord Jesus Christ], and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father.” (Joh 1:14)

So I believe The Logos here is referring to JESUS.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS




So it would be correct to put what John wrote, in this way?:

"In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God".


Re: What is the Logos? 
Author: Pierac 
Posted: 05/03/2016 04:31 PM 
 
[u]








Yahu wrote:









Checkpoint wrote:

I am referring to John's first chapter, where he introduces a Greek philosophical concept called "the Logos" which is usually translated as "the Word".

Who really understands, who can explain, what John wrote in these verses?


1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing that exists came into being.


God is with God? What??

Just philosophical ideas? And if so, to convey what to his readers?

Two Gods?



You have to understand what "word" John was talking about. Look at Gen 1:1 in the Hebrew. There is a word there that is used twice that is not translated into English. It is the word 'et' (aleph-tav). It is used as a pointer to the action of the verb and has no usage in English. It is through the 'aleph-tav' that creation came into being.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Word John is referring to is 'aleph-tav', the 'alpha-omega' in Gen 1:1 that all creation was brought into being through.
Elohyim -> created through aleph-tav -> the heavens.
Elohyim -> created through aleph-tav -> the earth.

The aleph-tav of Gen 1:1 is a picture of Yeshua at the very beginning.

It is also interesting that it has 2 uses and the placement of those uses in the passage. The 2 uses corresponds with Yeshua's 2 comings. It is the fourth word and Yeshua came after the 4000 years since creation. It is also at the end of the 6th compound word 'vET'. We expect His return right before the 1000 year millennial kingdom. That is the 1000 year Sabbath. So His coming back at the end of the 6000th year right at the tribulation before the 1000 year Sabbath. That completes the week of creation of 1000 year days and to Yah a day is as 1000 years.


Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega (Aleph and Tav), the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.



I have copies of over 161 Greek manuscripts dating back to 200AD, and all that contain the book of John use the word "Logos". None of John's copies speak of referring to 'aleph-tav', Your trying to fit Johns writings into your world view and it does not fit!

BTW he does tell you why he wrote his book.... has nothing to do with Aleph and Tav!


John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.



Sorry...
Paul


Re: What is the Logos? 
Author: Pierac 
Posted: 05/03/2016 04:35 PM 
 
[u]








Yahu wrote:


Yeshua was present at the creation. He is the manifestation of the physical form of Elohyim and it was through Yeshua that all the heavens and earth came into being.

I see Yeshua as the physical body of the godhead, the Father as the soul of the godhead and the Holy Spirit as the communications between the soul and the body. Man is made in His image, three parts body/soul/spirit.

The Paleo-hebrew meaning of YHVH is 'arm/hand', 'behold', 'nail', 'behold', as in 'behold the nail [pierced] hand', it is also a reference to Yeshua.




No scripture teaches such... please share...


Paul


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