Israel at War with Hamas October 7, 2023

[Diogenes]

There is no question this was a horrific attack by Hamas on Israel that also endangers Palestinians.
To what extent are attacks like this inevitable, considering the history of Israel?

Isn't this just another example of how religious conflict breeds violence?
or
Is it inevitable that strongly held beliefs will always ignite the passions of some?

Perhaps the difference with religions that claim authority from God is that they inspire absolute beliefs, an absolute conviction they are 'right' and therefore anything is justifiable... including following God's orders to kill your own son.

Palestinian land stolen in 1948, more in 1967, then more every day in the West Bank makes acts of terrorism inevitable. Then Netanyahu put a right wing criminal in charge of the 'Ministry of Justice,' and... BIG SURPRISE! ... another war.
"If I go the to write indictment number one, it would go to Israel's Justice Minister YARIV LEVIN. He is the man who drove this insane, corrupt, dishonest effort to basically take over the power of the Supreme Court. With Netanyahu's help, he fractured Israel. He fractured Israeli society. He fractured the Israeli ministry, the military. He fractured the Israeli air force...."
__ Tom Friedman

https://www.rawstory.com/tom-friedman-i ... A-TIAtHv6Y

[Diogenes]

Palestinian land stolen in 1948, more in 1967, then more every day in the West Bank makes acts of terrorism inevitable. Then Netanyahu put a right wing criminal in charge of the 'Ministry of Justice,' and... BIG SURPRISE! ... another war.
"If I go the to write indictment number one, it would go to Israel's Justice Minister YARIV LEVIN. He is the man who drove this insane, corrupt, dishonest effort to basically take over the power of the Supreme Court. With Netanyahu's help, he fractured Israel. He fractured Israeli society. He fractured the Israeli ministry, the military. He fractured the Israeli air force...."
__ Tom Friedman

https://www.rawstory.com/tom-friedman-i ... A-TIAtHv6Y

I'd also want to know when did the Arabs occupy Palestine. Some history says that it wasn't until the 7th century CE.

People often confuse Arabs with Muslims. The tribes in the area of the Levant and the entire Arabian peninsula have been there a long, long time.

The Arabian Peninsula was the initial site of the out-of-Africa migrations that occurred between 125,000 and 60,000 yr ago, leading to the hypothesis that the first Eurasian populations were established on the Peninsula and that contemporary indigenous Arabs are direct descendants of these ancient peoples.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4728368/

Islam/Muslims is a very different story since the 'Prophet' Muhammad was not born until 610.
According to BibleStudy.org:

God, before the children of Israel entered the Promised Land, commanded that they conquer and destroy at least seven nations more powerful than they are. These nations or peoples were the Hittites, Canaanites, Girgashites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites (Deuteronomy 7:1).

https://www.biblestudy.org/maps/who-was ... nquer.html

You can certainly add more tribes to the list, including the Philistines.

The Philistines (Hebrew pelishtim) were a non-Semitic people who settled in the southern coastal area of Canaan, which became known as Philistia (Hebrew pelesheth). They are well known from the Old Testament for often warring with the Israelites.

https://www.sots.ac.uk/wiki/philistines/

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #3

I think Israel made many mistakes; generational mistakes in dealing with Palestine - but they tend not to target innocent civilians

"Friday was the seventh day of Israeli bombing. More than 1,800 Palestinans have been killed."

[AgnosticBoy]

I'd also want to know when did the Arabs occupy Palestine. Some history says that it wasn't until the 7th century CE.

People often confuse Arabs with Muslims.

I agree that there is difference. The confusion may be that not all Arabs are Muslims but at one point (going back to Islam's origin) all Muslims were Arab. I posted a source in my last post that details Islam spreading to Palestine in the 7th century BC. Although some call that event as being part of the 'Arab Conquest' (against the Byzantine Empire), but I did find some evidence that Arabs lived in Palestine even when the Byzantines were in control (refer to the Demographics section).

So it could be that some Arabs were in Palestine prior to the Arab Conquest, but then they gained control of Palestine after the Arab Conquest.

The tribes in the area of the Levant and the entire Arabian peninsula have been there a long, long time.

The Arabian Peninsula was the initial site of the out-of-Africa migrations that occurred between 125,000 and 60,000 yr ago, leading to the hypothesis that the first Eurasian populations were established on the Peninsula and that contemporary indigenous Arabs are direct descendants of these ancient peoples.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4728368/

I understand your point, but it doesn't answer my question about when the Arabic people got to Palestine. The Arabian Peninsula does not include the territory of Israel or Palestine.

The Arabian Peninsula, or Arabia, is a piece of land in southwestern Asia. It is the original homeland of the Arab people. It is also the birthplace of the religion of Islam. The country of Saudi Arabia takes up about four fifths of the peninsula. The peninsula also includes Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Yemen, Bahrain, and parts of Jordan and Iraq.

Source: Britannica

To view a map of that territory go here: MetMuseum
"Encompasses present-day Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen"

Another line of evidence is that the ancient inhabitants of Palestine had ancestral links to Europe:

The finds showed that at that stage Palestine was culturally linked with Europe, and human remains were recovered showing that the inhabitants were of the same group as the Neanderthal inhabitants of Europe.

Source: Britannica

[AgnosticBoy]

"Friday was the seventh day of Israeli bombing. More than 1,800 Palestinans have been killed."[/i]

The fact that Palestinians civilians are dying doesn't necessarily mean Israel is targeting innocent civilians. It's hard to avoid casualties when terrorists position themselves amongst civilians to use them as human shields.

It would make a world of difference if when people bring up deaths on either side, that they add some context to it. Otherwise we risk confusing 'collateral damage' (civilians aren't the intended target) with innocent civilians being the intended target (i.e. murder).

[boatsnguitars]

Following from http://www.israeladvocacy.net/knowledge ... nian-land/
Please read whole article.

Is it true that Israel stole Palestinian land?
Accusation: Israel stole Palestinian land to build a Jewish State
[the Muslim Brotherhood will] continue to view the Jews and Zionists as their first and foremost enemies … Jihad means making sacrifices in order to restore what has been stolen [Palestine].

– Mohamed Badie, Supreme Leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, January 2010

Fact or fiction: Jews stole Palestinian land before 1948
From the beginning of World War 1 Arabs began claiming that Jews had stolen Arab land and displaced its inhabitants. In reality, 80% of the land in the region was considered “state land”, owned by the Ottoman Empire (subsequently the British), the next largest landholders were absentee landlords like the Lebanese Sursuck family who owned most of the Jezreel Valley. In contrast, 80 percent of Palestinian Arabs were impoverished peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins… not wealthy landowners.1

The region was severely underpopulated which meant the Jews were able to avoid buying land in areas where Arabs might be displaced, which they did. They sought land that was largely uncultivated, swampy, sandy, and most importantly, without tenants, like much of the Jezreel Valley. In 1920, David Ben-Gurion expressed his concern about the Arab fellaheen (peasants), whom he viewed as “the most important asset of the native population” he said “under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them”. He advocated helping liberate them from their oppressors. “Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement,” Ben-Gurion added, “should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price.” 2

This stood out to me: "In contrast, 80 percent of Palestinian Arabs were impoverished peasants, semi-nomads and Bedouins… not wealthy landowners"

Of course, they wouldn't have had to honor or respect the idea of owning land. Native Americans didn't own land - there seems to be a direct parallel to Palestinians and Native Americans. Both were forced to live under a Imperialist regime, and both are justified in being angry about it. Clearly, however, Native Americans have not done the horrible terrorism that Hamas has done, and have been generally peaceful (though, seemingly suffering generationally from the indignity of their imprisonment).

I appears, objectively, that the occupiers were in the wrong, and that they ought to find a solution to return dignity to both groups. However, under a landowner system, especially under Capitalism, that will never happen. So, I certainly don't blame the occupiers for the atrocities of Hamas, one can surely admit it was to be expected, or at least, not completely unexpected. The stupidity of it is that Hamas loses the PR war, loses their moral standing, and, because this act is too outrageous, there will be no incentive for Israel to negotiate.

There will be more bloodshed, and more generations of children growing up to hate the 'other' for having killed their parents.


Also, I thought about how absurd it all is. This isn't a war of Religions, per se, but a war of Yahweh followers. Think how absurd it is! It's people who just can't stand how one group claims Yahweh likes them better. It's all about the "Holy Land" and who was promised it by Yahweh.
They all claim to speak for Yahweh - which means at least 2 of the 3 groups are lying, as were their religious fathers. It's a shining example of the horror religion brings to the world.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #14

It would make a world of difference if when people bring up deaths on either side, that they add some context to it. Otherwise we risk confusing 'collateral damage' (civilians aren't the intended target) with innocent civilians being the intended target (i.e. murder).

Here's some context:

Israel also seems to have removed some of its previous guardrails on its rules of engagement meant to protect civilians. Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said Tuesday that he had “released all restraints” on the IDF in their fight against Hamas.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/11/middleea ... index.html


From the same article:

Cutting off the water supply to Gaza “affects over 610,000 people and will result in severe shortage of drinking water,” UN OCHA’s Jens Laerke added.

Does the Israeli government think that only Hamas terrorists need water?


"Israel controls the movement of residents from Gaza into Israel through two crossings, Erez and Kerem Shalom, both of which have been shut.

The only border crossing between Gaza and Egypt was struck by Israeli warplanes Tuesday, the spokesperson for the Palestinian Interior Ministry Eyad al-Bozom said. The tightly controlled Rafah crossing is the only one available to Gazans looking to flee."

Palestinians have been told to evacuate. With exit points closed, how are they supposed to get out?

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #16]
I was referring to the case of bombings and other military combat actions committed by the Israelis. When Hamas uses humans as shields, then that should not be lumped in with 'murder' (w/ civilians as the intended target). You will have to offer verifiable evidence if you want to make the case that all or even most cases of Palestinian deaths have involved Israel making civilians the intended target.

The other points you brought up is wrong on the part of Israel. In some cases, I think Israel does not realize that some of their actions will harm civilians more than Hamas. When the US imposes sanctions on rogue governments, I also question if the citizens are harmed more than these governments. Here's some perspective on that:

Economic sanctions have long been at the core of the international community's efforts to deal with rogue regimes and terrorist organisations. Iraq, Iran, Libya and Sudan have faced sanctions, as have terrorist groups such as al-Qaeda and Hamas. For such a frequently used tool, sanctions are not well regarded.

Critics charge that sanctions are ineffectual, hurt innocent civilians and undercut the business interests of countries imposing the measures.

Source: The Washington Institute for Near East Policy

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #17

I was referring to the case of bombings and other military combat actions committed by the Israelis. When Hamas uses humans as shields, then that should not be lumped in with 'murder' (w/ civilians as the intended target). You will have to offer verifiable evidence if you want to make the case that all or even most cases of Palestinian deaths have involved Israel making civilians the intended target.

The other points you brought up is wrong on the part of Israel. In some cases, I think Israel does not realize that some of their actions will harm civilians more than Hamas. When the US imposes sanctions on rogue governments, I also question if the citizens are harmed more than these governments.

I'm not saying that Israel is targeting civilians, but while I see the point you're trying to make you have to admit that cutting off the water supply to the people of a whole region, telling them to evacuate the region, shutting down the exit points and trapping them in the open in a war zone is even worse than economic sanctions. Even without targeting them, Israel's tactics are still making it virtually impossible for the civilians of Gaza to survive.

Gaza is completely blockaded by Israel. If Israel can stop food and fuel from getting to civilians, then it can stop weapons from getting to Hamas. Some are quick to point out that weapons are smuggled through underground tunnels, but GPR and other underground detection technology can be used to find tunnels so the movement of weapons can be stopped. Since the only way for Hamas to get weapons is underground, that's where Israel should be concentrating its war against Hamas and not on hamfisted attacks on the neighborhoods of Gaza which stir up more anti-Israel sentiment and really don't hamper Hamas at all.

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm not saying that Israel is targeting civilians, but while I see the point you're trying to make you have to admit that cutting off the water supply to the people of a whole region, telling them to evacuate the region, shutting down the exit points and trapping them in the open in a war zone is even worse than economic sanctions. Even without targeting them, Israel's tactics are still making it virtually impossible for the civilians of Gaza to survive.

I accept 100% that Israel has said and done some irresponsible things that would harm innocent people. Cutting off water and electricity is one of them. Telling the Palestinians to evacuate an area is one of those things I'm not too sure about. I mean we are talkin about war here so no one should expect for civilians to feel at ease in their homes while large scale battles are happening in their area. Hek, if I heard just one gun shot near my home, I'd be running for cover. So inevitably, civilians will be put in uncomfortable situations, but if they are, then it should only be done when it's unavoidable (e.g. it's needed to effectively isolate and attack Hamas).

[AgnosticBoy]

Btw, you guys should check out this heated debate. The two sparred on the recent Israel and Palestine conflict. Sadly the two couldn't respect each others differing opinion without it turning personal and polarizing. I think that's representative of a lot of the public discourse on this issue.