Murder of abortion provider George Tiller

[otseng]

http://www.kansas.com/946/story/834444.html

With one bullet, a gunman ended the life and the controversial career of abortion doctor George Tiller, killing him as he stood in the foyer of his church Sunday.

Tiller, 67, was shot once just after 10 a.m. Sunday as he stood in the lobby of Reformation Lutheran Church, 7601 E. 13th St., where he was serving as an usher. The gunman threatened to shoot two men who tried to apprehend him.

Although Wichita police would not name the suspect, the Johnson County Sheriff's Office identified him as Scott P. Roeder, according to the Associated Press.

For debate:
Was Roeder justified in killing Tiller?

[Goat]

http://www.kansas.com/946/story/834444.html

With one bullet, a gunman ended the life and the controversial career of abortion doctor George Tiller, killing him as he stood in the foyer of his church Sunday.

Tiller, 67, was shot once just after 10 a.m. Sunday as he stood in the lobby of Reformation Lutheran Church, 7601 E. 13th St., where he was serving as an usher. The gunman threatened to shoot two men who tried to apprehend him.

Although Wichita police would not name the suspect, the Johnson County Sheriff's Office identified him as Scott P. Roeder, according to the Associated Press.

For debate:
Should abortion providers be killed?

Do two wrongs make a right?

If the late term abortions are to save the life of the person having the abortion, is that wrong?

This will probably provide a backlash against the 'pro-life' movement,and Bill O'Reilly in specific, since he really bashed this person on the air.

[MagusYanam]

Was Roeder justified in killing Tiller?

Of course not. Why the hell are we even discussing this? Has the pro-life movement become a death-squad movement now? From what it looks like, this shmuck Roeder appointed himself judge, jury and executioner here - and what kind of jerk would shoot an unarmed man in cold blood in a church? Someone who values the 'sanctity of life'? This is OUTRAGEOUS!

Sadly, I think goat is right. I'm no fan of abortion, and I think a lot of what Tiller did was wrong - but Roeder's making us all look like vigilantist fanatics now.

[McCulloch]

How about some context?

Under the laws of the USA, it is up to the courts to decide whether the killer's actions were justified. I strongly suspect that the courts will rule that a the killer did commit murder.

Under the principles of ethical behavior, the question is less clear. If the killer truly believed that fetuses are human, he would have seen the abortion provider as a mass murderer who's killing spree was sanctioned by the state. Thus his actions could be seen on the same moral level as killing one a Rwandan Hutu militiaman during the genocide of the Tutsis,

Under the principles of Christian ethics, the question becomes clearer. Christianity clearly teaches that taking vengeance is not the appropriate role for the follower of Christ, so even if the abortionist is a murderer, this kind of vigilante justice is not appropriate.

[otseng]

Was Roeder justified in killing Tiller?

No.

Why the hell are we even discussing this? Has the pro-life movement become a death-squad movement now?

I bring it up cause some might think that.

The National Right to Life condemns the killing of Tiller.

The National Right to Life Committee (NRLC), the nation’s largest pro-life group, today condemned the killing of Dr. George Tiller.

http://www.nrlc.org/press_releases_new/ ... 53109.html

Kansans for life condemns it.

“Kansans for Life deplores the murder of Dr. George Tiller, and we wish to express our deep and sincere sympathy to his family and friends,� said director Mary Kay Culp. “We value life, completely deplore violence, and are shocked and very upset by what happened in Wichita today.�

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/hea ... oryid=3071

Operation Rescue said:

“We are shocked at this morning’s disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down. Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller’s family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ.�

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/may/09053101.html

Priests for life said:

“I am saddened to hear of the killing of George Tiller this morning. At this point, we do not know the motives of this act, or who is behind it, whether an angry post-abortive man or woman, or a misguided activist, or an enemy within the abortion industry, or a political enemy frustrated with the way Tiller has escaped prosecution. We should not jump to conclusions or rush to judgment.

“But whatever the motives, we at Priests for Life continue to insist on a culture in which violence is never seen as the solution to any problem. Every life has to be protected, without regard to their age or views or actions.�

http://www.priestsforlife.org/pressrele ... -death.htm

[McCulloch]

Was Roeder justified in killing Tiller?

No.

Why not?

The National Right to Life condemns the killing of Tiller.
Kansans for life condemns it.
Operation Rescue said:
Priests for life said:

But whatever the motives, we at Priests for Life continue to insist on a culture in which violence is never seen as the solution to any problem. Every life has to be protected, without regard to their age or views or actions.

Do all of these folks condemn capital punishment? Are they all opposed to all forms of war?

When their own rhetoric, paints the picture that an abortionist is literally getting away with murder, why is it that they denounce someone who might have taken what they say literally and seriously? If you really believe that huge numbers of humans are being murdered by the abortion procedure, then why not strike back in defense of the victims? Genocide is wrong, but we really shouldn't put any mass murdered at risk.

I say, "Bullfeathers!" They really don't believe their own propaganda. They are not really treating abortion as another genocide. They really don't want to put the mothers, who seek abortions and pay for someone to kill their babies in prison. The debate about abortion rights and the alleged right to life of the fetus will not ever get resolved while those on both sides of the issue engage in overblown arguments and don't take responsibility for the implications of what they say.

[MagusYanam]

Sorry about that outburst, otseng. It's just that the phrasing of the question seemed to me like it put vigilante killings on equal footing with the rule of law.

And I'm definitely glad to see that so many pro-life organisations are stepping up and condemning the use of violence.

Do all of these folks condemn capital punishment? Are they all opposed to all forms of war?

Sadly, not enough of them do. But I think some of them do.

I say, "Bullfeathers!" They really don't believe their own propaganda. They are not really treating abortion as another genocide. They really don't want to put the mothers, who seek abortions and pay for someone to kill their babies in prison. The debate about abortion rights and the alleged right to life of the fetus will not ever get resolved while those on both sides of the issue engage in overblown arguments and don't take responsibility for the implications of what they say.

That's a good point. I made a point in the abortion thread that even though most abortion is wrong, it also leads to some extremely messed-up moral and legal conclusions if we start stipulating that it's murder and that embryos are persons from conception. That probably counts as one of these.

[McCulloch]

And I'm definitely glad to see that so many pro-life organisations are stepping up and condemning the use of violence.

Actually, so am I. The use of vigilante violence will not solve these issues.

Do all of these folks condemn capital punishment? Are they all opposed to all forms of war?

Sadly, not enough of them do. But I think some of them do.

It would be better, they all would make consistent principled stands based on reason and evidence rather than on emotional hot buttons.

I say, "Bullfeathers!" They really don't believe their own propaganda. They are not really treating abortion as another genocide. They really don't want to put the mothers, who seek abortions and pay for someone to kill their babies in prison. The debate about abortion rights and the alleged right to life of the fetus will not ever get resolved while those on both sides of the issue engage in overblown arguments and don't take responsibility for the implications of what they say.

That's a good point. I made a point in the abortion thread that even though most abortion is wrong, it also leads to some extremely messed-up moral and legal conclusions if we start stipulating that it's murder and that embryos are persons from conception. That probably counts as one of these.

OK, maybe I am not up on the current state of the anti-abortionist arguments. Have they, for the most part, stopped claiming that it is murder? Have they moved on to some other primary moral failing of abortion other than it ends a human life? Have I been isolated so long from the debate that I have missed this sea change in the other side?

[Goat]

Sorry about that outburst, otseng. It's just that the phrasing of the question seemed to me like it put vigilante killings on equal footing with the rule of law.

And I'm definitely glad to see that so many pro-life organisations are stepping up and condemning the use of violence.

Yet, some of these groups, by the very rhetoric they use, actually encourage it. Maybe not directly saying so, but their extreme emotionally charged rhetoric is designed to inflame people.


Take a look at "Operation Rescue". Although they condemned the killing, their promotional pamphlets were designed to be very emotional, and could easily kick someone over the edge.

For all the condemning of the murder, they have to look at their campaigns, and see how much they contributed to the mindset.

[otseng]

Do all of these folks condemn capital punishment? Are they all opposed to all forms of war?

I think that's another area for debate. But, briefly, I do not think it's relevant because capital punishment is for those pronounced guilty by the state. In terms of Tiller, it was one man's judgement.

If you really believe that huge numbers of humans are being murdered by the abortion procedure, then why not strike back in defense of the victims?

Like you said, it's against Christian ethics. "Christianity clearly teaches that taking vengeance is not the appropriate role for the follower of Christ, so even if the abortionist is a murderer, this kind of vigilante justice is not appropriate."

A little more about Tiller.

He was the medical director of a women's health care clinic in Wichita, Women's Health Care Services, one of only three nationwide which would provide abortion after the 21st week of pregnancy (known as late-term abortion).

Tiller had intended to go back to Wichita, close up his father's family practice and then go back to become a dermatologist. However, he quickly felt pressure to take over his father's family practice. Tiller's father had performed abortions at his practice. After hearing about a woman that had died from an illegal abortion, Tiller stayed in Wichita to continue his father's practice.

Some of Tiller's patients discovered late in pregnancy that their fetuses had severe or fatal birth defects, but he also aborted healthy late-term fetuses in cases where this would prevent "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" for the mother.

Kansas law prohibits aborting viable fetuses, which is generally midway through the second trimester, unless two doctors certify that continuing the pregnancy would cause the woman "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function."

The suspect had been a member of the anti-government Freemen group and was convicted in 1996 on explosives charges after police officers discovered fuse cord, a pound of gunpowder and nine-volt batteries in the trunk his car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller