Hamas

[tatty]

What is your opinion of Hamas being called to the ICC?

Is the amount of force used by Israel a war crime or justified retaliation?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Gaza could be a port, not a child-bomb factory.

Or the San Diego of the Levant.

Bottom line: "We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us." [attributed to Golda Meir]

[Jayhawker Soule]

See ...

• Understanding the Goldstone Report

[VermilionUK]

I largely agree with much of what has been said, and no, I cannot offer an alternative. If I could, I'd probably be a very rich man. Yes, I hate what Hamas/Hezbollah are doing, but what can I/we possibly do except talk/protest about it?

What angers me the most is not the noxious quality or ethical bankruptcy of the presumptions involved, but the fact that the persistent liberal drumbeat of moral equivalency enables and sustains Hamas and Hezbollah on the world stage. They continue to operate, in part, because the VermilionUKs of the world.

I can't see how a person who condems their actions could encourage them and lead to their sustained attacks. But it's not as if Israel has a clean record is it? The Irgun have had their fair share of attacks.

"If the terrorists put down their weapons, there would be no war. If the Israelis put down their weapons, there would be no Israel."

Yup, which is why I think it would be better for Israel if Western forces helped them secure themselves - rather than sitting there saying: "Stop shooting each other. Oh, would you like some weapons? Here you go."

I don't see why I've been attacked on this issue. I'm not supporting the extremist groups, but I think that it's wrong for Israel to block medical supplies etc and bulldoze civilian houses/towns to make way for their developments.

[Jayhawker Soule]

I largely agree with much of what has been said, and no, I cannot offer an alternative. If I could, I'd probably be a very rich man. Yes, I hate what Hamas/Hezbollah are doing, but what can I/we possibly do except talk/protest about it?

What angers me the most is not the noxious quality or ethical bankruptcy of the presumptions involved, but the fact that the persistent liberal drumbeat of moral equivalency enables and sustains Hamas and Hezbollah on the world stage. They continue to operate, in part, because the VermilionUKs of the world.

I can't see how a person who condems their actions could encourage them and lead to their sustained attacks. But it's not as if Israel has a clean record is it? The Irgun have had their fair share of attacks.

The dull disgusting drumbeat continues ...

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't see why I've been attacked on this issue. I'm not supporting the extremist groups, ...

Absolute rubbish!

[VermilionUK]

The dull disgusting drumbeat continues ...

You think it is disgusting for me to state that I am against Hamas/Hezbollah, but also at the same time state that I believe Israel are being too heavy handed?

Personally, I find it disgusting that you are seemingly dismissive of Israel's actions. We clearly differ wildly in our opinions.

[cnorman18]

The dull disgusting drumbeat continues ...

You think it is disgusting for me to state that I am against Hamas/Hezbollah, but also at the same time state that I believe Israel are being too heavy handed?

Personally, I find it disgusting that you are seemingly dismissive of Israel's actions. We clearly differ wildly in our opinions.

I don't think that the position that Jayhawker was attacking was a fair representation of your own.

That said: If Israel's actions are "too heavy handed," please explain what actions would be acceptable. In specifics, please; e.g., how, that is, by what specific actions, would you handle the problem of ambulances being used as weapons of war? How about sustained mortar fire from a schoolyard or mosque? A bomb factory in an apartment house? Suicide bombers disguised as pregnant women in labor? Children conscripted to carry suicide bombs?

Who would you stop and search?

What would not be "too heavy handed"?

[VermilionUK]

Searching ambulances is fine as far as I'm concerned, but blocking Red-Cross members, who identify/prove themselves as Red-Cross isn't acceptable in my view. Bulldozing houses to make way for Israeli settlements isn't acceptable in my view. And neither is using phosphorus, or boming areas metres from UN buildings.

Like I said, I think Israel need assistance from the West, rather than just money.

[cnorman18]

Searching ambulances is fine as far as I'm concerned, but blocking Red-Cross members, who identify/prove themselves as Red-Cross isn't acceptable in my view. Bulldozing houses to make way for Israeli settlements isn't acceptable in my view. And neither is using phosphorus, or boming areas metres from UN buildings.

Like I said, I think Israel need assistance from the West, rather than just money.

I see no specific positive alternatives here. In other words, you haven't answered the question(s); you continue to have a lot to say about what isn't acceptable, but nothing about what would be.

How do you condemn something as excessive when you can't offer "nonexcessive" alternatives?

Let us stipulate that we send in UN observers and troops. How would THEY stop terrorism? What would THEY do in the scenarios I outlined above, and which you did not address?

[JoeyKnothead]

Searching ambulances is fine as far as I'm concerned, but blocking Red-Cross members, who identify/prove themselves as Red-Cross isn't acceptable in my view. Bulldozing houses to make way for Israeli settlements isn't acceptable in my view. And neither is using phosphorus, or boming areas metres from UN buildings.

Like I said, I think Israel need assistance from the West, rather than just money.

I see no specific positive alternatives here. In other words, you haven't answered the question(s); you continue to have a lot to say about what isn't acceptable, but nothing about what would be.

How do you condemn something as excessive when you can't offer "nonexcessive" alternatives?

Let us stipulate that we send in UN observers and troops. How would THEY stop terrorism? What would THEY do in the scenarios I outlined above, and which you did not address?

Good perspectives both.

I do think cnorman18 really gets closer to an accurate take. What is an acceptable level of violence in regards to folks who avow your complete and utter destruction?

Time and again Israel has made real attempts at peace, and they've been lied to, and worse.

On the issue of war crimes, I say hold Israel accountable to provable and unjustified wrongs. As a juror though, I'd factor in the fact that Israel must wage war within and even against a "civilian" population.

When you hide amongst civilians and claim "shame" when they are killed due to yourself being targeted, then you really need to think about just what "shame" really is.

Don't shoot at me from your grandma's house and I won't drop bombs on your grandma.