Hamas

[tatty]

What is your opinion of Hamas being called to the ICC?

Is the amount of force used by Israel a war crime or justified retaliation?

[cnorman18]

Israel has wanted peace since the beginning. Israel still wants peace.

What does Hamas want? It's in their charter: the complete destruction and elimination of Israel and the death or expulsion of every Jew in the Middle East.

One side wants peace. The other side wants total annihilation. Let's keep that in mind as we throw our facile judgments around.

The problem is that the terms for peace are different on both sides.

Are you seriously saying that we just have a difference in definitions, and that "No Jews in the Middle East that aren't dead" is as good a definition of peace as "An end to violence and bloodshed"?

If that isn't papering over the whole issue of terrorism and mass murder of innocents and attributing moral equivalence to the two sides, what would that look like?

The Arabs/Palestinian Arabs feel as though they have been forced out of their land, they feel as though a country was made within their land, and so want that land back.

That's factually inaccurate; and even if it WERE accurate, it doesn't justify blowing up school buses and synagogues in the present day, nor does it justify hiding among civilians and staging attacks from civilian areas.

Make up your mind; are you talking about the justness of the Arabs' historical complaints, or the morality of present-day tactics? Those are two separate debates, and one doesn't justify the other.

Israel also wants peace, and have made efforts, such as working to develop the PNA (Palestinian National Authority) to govern over the West bank and Gaza strip.

The problem is that it's still with Israeli supervision, and so even though on paper the Palestinians have a body to govern their own affairs, in reality, they don't.

The PA swore to use the weapons provided to them by the Israelis to curb terrorism and increase security for both Palestinians and Israelis. They promptly set about not only ignoring terrorists, but assisting and arming them. Remember the Karine A?

Israel pulled completely out of Gaza; closed and evacuated all the "settlements," which act I applaud, and withdrew all troops. Result? Intensified cross-border rocket, mortar and suicide-bomb attacks into southern Israel.

Every time the Palestinians have received concessions, whether in land, independence, or even being supplied arms, they have used those concessions to terrorize the Israelis. Not a single commitment has been kept on the Palestinian side; not a single act of terror has been stopped by Palestinian or Hamas authorities. Not one.

What would happen, one wonders, if Israel granted the Palestinians the total autonomy and free access to Israel that they claim would be fair? Tore down the wall, closed the checkpoints, let the Arabs come and go as they please?

Who thinks they'd put down all their bombs and guns and mortars and rockets and just come forward with their arms outstretched for hugs?

Remember those charters no one wants to talk about?

On a side note, what are people's thoughts on this:


I think it's interesting, considering the man in question was a member of the IAF, and so we get a real insider's view...

One guy's opinion, no more authoritative than anyone else's. Sorry, I didn't watch it; I don't debate other websites. If you think this guy has some good points to make, tell us what they are and we'll debate. I'm not playing "Hey, HE said that, not me. Isn't it interesting?" with anybody.

[VermilionUK]

One guy's opinion, no more authoritative than anyone else's. Sorry, I didn't watch it; I don't debate other websites.

Fair enough, all I was trying to do was show someone's viewpoint. It's a BBC news interview where the newsreader in the studio is speaking to an Israeli, who is speaking live (at the time of the interview) from Jerusalem. The Israeli is a former Israeli Air Force Captain, and he expresses his views on the current situation in Israel/Palestine.

If you think this guy has some good points to make, tell us what they are and we'll debate. I'm not playing "Hey, HE said that, not me. Isn't it interesting?" with anybody.

That's kind of a hostile stance. I was trying to provide a viewpoint from someone who was involved in the conflict first-hand. I came across that video and thought it would be worth sharing in this forum, considering it relates to the issue we are discussing. I was looking for a view from a Palestinian to post as well, but considering the response you gave, I'll refrain from doing it, so as to not engage in a "Hey, HE said that, not me. Isn't it interesting?" kind of game.

The points he made aren't really anything new that we haven't discussed, I just thought it would be some form of variation in the discussion, rather than just putting across our views back and forth.

He speaks about the Israelis who are demonstrating against Israel's actions and appeals for others to join the demonstrations. He speaks about how Israel's stance that it is a defence is the same for the Palestinians who are firing rockets into Israel - meaning that both sides claim they are on the defense. He states that they (the Palestinians) are locked in what he refers to as a "ghetto" and are treated like animals, with lacks in food, medical supplies, that they cannot get in or out of the area.

I thought it was interesting, because many people claim that Israel are doing nothing wrong, and many claim that Israel are doing many things wrong, but in this clip we have a former member of the Israeli forces speaking out about what he has seen and what is going on. However, as you're refusing to watch it, its rather pointless to discuss what he has said.

[cnorman18]

One guy's opinion, no more authoritative than anyone else's. Sorry, I didn't watch it; I don't debate other websites.

Fair enough, all I was trying to do was show someone's viewpoint. It's a BBC news interview where the newsreader in the studio is speaking to an Israeli, who is speaking live (at the time of the interview) from Jerusalem. The Israeli is a former Israeli Air Force Captain, and he expresses his views on the current situation in Israel/Palestine.

If you think this guy has some good points to make, tell us what they are and we'll debate. I'm not playing "Hey, HE said that, not me. Isn't it interesting?" with anybody.

That's kind of a hostile stance. I was trying to provide a viewpoint from someone who was involved in the conflict first-hand. I came across that video and thought it would be worth sharing in this forum, considering it relates to the issue we are discussing. I was looking for a view from a Palestinian to post as well, but considering the response you gave, I'll refrain from doing it, so as to not engage in a "Hey, HE said that, not me. Isn't it interesting?" kind of game.

The points he made aren't really anything new that we haven't discussed, I just thought it would be some form of variation in the discussion, rather than just putting across our views back and forth.

He speaks about the Israelis who are demonstrating against Israel's actions and appeals for others to join the demonstrations. He speaks about how Israel's stance that it is a defence is the same for the Palestinians who are firing rockets into Israel - meaning that both sides claim they are on the defense. He states that they (the Palestinians) are locked in what he refers to as a "ghetto" and are treated like animals, with lacks in food, medical supplies, that they cannot get in or out of the area.

I thought it was interesting, because many people claim that Israel are doing nothing wrong, and many claim that Israel are doing many things wrong, but in this clip we have a former member of the Israeli forces speaking out about what he has seen and what is going on. However, as you're refusing to watch it, its rather pointless to discuss what he has said.

I suppose I was being a bit hostile, and for that I apologize; but please notice that we are still discussing the misdeeds of the Israelis.

Hamas rocket attacks are "defensive"? Do YOU buy that? Please remember that those rockets are being deliberately aimed at civilian areas, not at military targets. See what I mean? Some people, including yourself, just repeat those specious claims as if they had any validity whatever. They don't.

One more time: What is your solution to terrorism? Again, stipulate that we send in the UN; what are THEY going to do to stop terrorism?

And if you don't have any specific suggestions, don't your nonconstructive criticisms of Israeli actions boil down to "Israel shouldn't be permitted to do anything at all, and the Palestinians can do whatever they want with impunity"?

If not - well, what do you recommend?

[VermilionUK]

I suppose I was being a bit hostile, and for that I apologize; but please notice that we are still discussing the misdeeds of the Israelis.

Hamas rocket attacks are "defensive"? Do YOU buy that? Please remember that those rockets are being deliberately aimed at civilian areas, not at military targets. See what I mean? Some people, including yourself, just repeat those specious claims as if they had any validity whatever. They don't.

I don't "buy" that. I was referring to his views, not mine. I stated it because you asked me to put across his points of view, as you did not watch the clip.

One more time: What is your solution to terrorism? Again, stipulate that we send in the UN; what are THEY going to do to stop terrorism?

I'm no military strategist, but what I do know, is that things cannot carry on the way they are. Maybe if the UN were to "oversee" what Israel does, then maybe there would be less scope for accusations of war crimes etc. We can't let things carry on the way they are. The UN is the only viable alternative in my opinion.

And if you don't have any specific suggestions, don't your nonconstructive criticisms of Israeli actions boil down to "Israel shouldn't be permitted to do anything at all, and the Palestinians can do whatever they want with impunity"?

No they don't "boil down" to that.

I have a feeling that if, say, France was under rocket fire from groups in Spain, and in response bombed some schools, killing many civilians, stating "the rockets came from that area" - there would be monumental outcry from the US, UK, UN, etc etc.

What would be your suggestion on what to do regarding Israel/Palestine?

[cnorman18]

I suppose I was being a bit hostile, and for that I apologize; but please notice that we are still discussing the misdeeds of the Israelis.

Hamas rocket attacks are "defensive"? Do YOU buy that? Please remember that those rockets are being deliberately aimed at civilian areas, not at military targets. See what I mean? Some people, including yourself, just repeat those specious claims as if they had any validity whatever. They don't.

I don't "buy" that. I was referring to his views, not mine.

I don't want to sound hostile, but seriously, isn't that precisely "He said that, not me"?

I stated it because you asked me to put across his points of view, as you did not watch the clip.

Fair enough. But what was the point of showing views that have no validity?

One more time: What is your solution to terrorism? Again, stipulate that we send in the UN; what are THEY going to do to stop terrorism?

I'm no military strategist, but what I do know, is that things cannot carry on the way they are. Maybe if the UN were to "oversee" what Israel does, then maybe there would be less scope for accusations of war crimes etc. We can't let things carry on the way they are. The UN is the only viable alternative in my opinion.

What unit of the US Army, or any other national army, would give a foreign and perhaps hostile organization veto power over its operations?

How about putting the UN observers among HAMAS and FATAH FIGHTERS, and let the UN supervise and give the OK to THEIR actions?

Is there a reason that that didn't occur to you?

What might that reason be?

And if you don't have any specific suggestions, don't your nonconstructive criticisms of Israeli actions boil down to "Israel shouldn't be permitted to do anything at all, and the Palestinians can do whatever they want with impunity"?

No they don't "boil down" to that.

I have a feeling that if, say, France was under rocket fire from groups in Spain, and in response bombed some schools, killing many civilians, stating "the rockets came from that area" - there would be monumental outcry from the US, UK, UN, etc etc.

Another case of allegations accepted uncritically as gospel truth, exaggeration for polemic purposes, and no mention of the civilians initially under attack. The only "crime" considered for action is the defense against the attacks on civilians. In other words: The Usual.

How about if France was under rocket fire from groups in Spain, daily for a matter of years, with literally thousands of rockets falling on civilian areas daily - and those attacks were not discouraged, but financed and coordinated by the Spanish government. How does that analogy look now? Do you think the French would hesitate to call those attacks what they are, which are acts of war, violations of the Geneva convention, and war crimes, invade Spanish territory and kick butt? And who, pray tell, would say they were wrong?

What would be your suggestion on what to do regarding Israel/Palestine?

Let the Israelis handle it as they choose, and let Hamas surrender and stop their terrorist activities under the pressure.

Let me give more details; the Israelis should be even more heavy-handed than they are now. If a village is a hotbed of terrorism, it should be razed to the ground. If ambulances are used to smuggle weapons or otherwise in the service of terrorism, they should be confiscated; let the wounded or sick get to the hospital as best they can, and blame Hamas and Fatah for it. Any place where rockets or mortars are launched against Israeli civilians should be bombed flat within minutes, or seconds if the technology is developed. Don't want your schools bombed? Don't launch rockets from them. Period, full stop. No mercy and no exceptions; no more than the terrorists have shown.

Maybe the terrorists will get the message if Israel's hand isn't constantly restrained by "world opinion" while Hamas is, in effect, condoned and encouraged, as is happening here.

Arabs who want to live in peace in Israel and the West Bank have always had the ability to do so, and very many do. Those who don't should get bullets or get out. End of my solution.

Now when do we get to go back and talk about all the points of mine that you have left without comment?

[FinalEnigma]

Let me give more details; the Israelis should be even more heavy-handed than they are now. If a village is a hotbed of terrorism, it should be razed to the ground. If ambulances are used to smuggle weapons or otherwise in the service of terrorism, they should be confiscated; let the wounded or sick get to the hospital as best they can, and blame Hamas and Fatah for it. Any place where rockets or mortars are launched against Israeli civilians should be bombed flat within minutes, or seconds if the technology is developed. Don't want your schools bombed? Don't launch rockets from them. Period, full stop. No mercy and no exceptions; no more than the terrorists have shown.

Maybe the terrorists will get the message if Israel's hand isn't constantly restrained by "world opinion" while Hamas is, in effect, condoned and encouraged, as is happening here.

I'm frankly amazed at you.





I never expected anyone to agree with me on that.

You hear about terrorists hiding in school and such cause they know you won't shoot back. I once said to someone "you know. if you started shooting back, they'd realize that hiding in schools didn't help, and stop doing it." and I was chastised for it.

[Jayhawker Soule]

How about putting the UN observers among HAMAS and FATAH FIGHTERS, and let the UN supervise and give the OK to THEIR actions?

UNIFIL ...

[VermilionUK]

I don't think you're suggestions would help anyone except Israel. You must remember that there are civilians there with nowhere else to go. Many are being restricted to those areas by Israel - so to suggest they leave or "get bullets" is impossible due to travel restrictions.

Your lack of care for civilian life is astounding. The fact that you would let the sick and injured walk to a hospital (and face death before they arrive) is both concerning, and a sign of how brutal some pro-Israeli supporters can be.

I'd expect any other reader on these forums would be both shocked and ashamed to see such words.

I have the sneaking suspicion that had I stated such harsh words, but against Israel, I'd quickly be labelled anti-semitic and my account would be removed/I'd be put on probation.

But what was the point of showing views that have no validity?

I'd say his words have more validity than ours, because he is/was part of that conflict, and has seen/taken part in events himself. I was trying to provide external views, other than just our own.

Now when do we get to go back and talk about all the points of mine that you have left without comment?

I'll try and address as many as I can.

Are you seriously saying that we just have a difference in definitions, and that "No Jews in the Middle East that aren't dead" is as good a definition of peace as "An end to violence and bloodshed"?

I was meaning that both sides have different criteria that must be met before that side would consider peace.

Eg: Israel wants rockets to stop etc etc
Palestinians want their land returned/to be allowed back into their homes/to be allowed to travel freely
Hamas on the other hand: want Israel destroyed - and no, before anyone jumps on me (such as Jayhawker Soule ) I don't support them, or think Israel should be destroyed.

That's factually inaccurate; and even if it WERE accurate, it doesn't justify blowing up school buses and synagogues in the present day, nor does it justify hiding among civilians and staging attacks from civilian areas.

Why would you say its inaccurate? Many arabs/palestinians consider land that is now Israel to be their land in the first place. And you're right, it doesn't justify blowing up school buses etc. Thats the problem when people feel as though they are not being heard - they grab attention in any way they can, and more often than not, its at the expense of civilian life.

Make up your mind; are you talking about the justness of the Arabs' historical complaints, or the morality of present-day tactics? Those are two separate debates, and one doesn't justify the other.

I was providing reason as to why there is no peace.

The PA swore to use the weapons provided to them by the Israelis to curb terrorism and increase security for both Palestinians and Israelis. They promptly set about not only ignoring terrorists, but assisting and arming them. Remember the Karine A?

Ok, good point. It reinforces the opinion shared by many, that those in authority are often corrupt.

Israel pulled completely out of Gaza; closed and evacuated all the "settlements," which act I applaud, and withdrew all troops. Result? Intensified cross-border rocket, mortar and suicide-bomb attacks into southern Israel.

Yes, they pulled out, but they made Gaza into an open prison. Those inside were trapped in overcrowded areas and many were without basic supplies. Hence the attacks. Kind of a "let us out of here" message.

Every time the Palestinians have received concessions, whether in land, independence, or even being supplied arms, they have used those concessions to terrorize the Israelis. Not a single commitment has been kept on the Palestinian side; not a single act of terror has been stopped by Palestinian or Hamas authorities. Not one.

The problem as far as I can see is Hamas. The Palestinian people want peace, but Hamas are the most vocal, and plague the Palestinian people with their extremism. I'd say that they are not the true voice of the average Palestinian

What would happen, one wonders, if Israel granted the Palestinians the total autonomy and free access to Israel that they claim would be fair? Tore down the wall, closed the checkpoints, let the Arabs come and go as they please?

Who thinks they'd put down all their bombs and guns and mortars and rockets and just come forward with their arms outstretched for hugs?

Remember those charters no one wants to talk about?

As I state above, it's Hamas who will cause the violence, not the average Palestinian civilian. Of course they can't just let them back without question, but many don't have anywhere to go back to anyway - Luxury Israeli developments are on top of many old towns.

[Jayhawker Soule]

The dull disgusting drumbeat continues ...

You think it is disgusting for me to state that I am against Hamas/Hezbollah, but also at the same time state that I believe Israel are being too heavy handed?

Personally, I find it disgusting that you are seemingly dismissive of Israel's actions. We clearly differ wildly in our opinions.

I don't think that the position that Jayhawker was attacking was a fair representation of your own.

What do you find unfair?

I don't think it's appropriate to speculate about what may or may not have crossed someone's mind, for starters; you have no right to presume to know the basis or bases for another's opinion.

It is fair, informed, and instructive to denounce the soft underbelly of liberal antisemitism.

Further, I don't think VUK could be properly described as an "apologist" for Hamas &c; ...

You are right. He is not an apologist -- although the effect is the same. Actually, "ignorant tool" is a far more accurate description.

...; apologists normally justify terrorism. At least VUK denounces it.

To draw a moral equivalency between terrorism and national defense is precisely a justification of terrorism. As for what he denounces, no doubt doing so helps him to legitimatize himself in his own mind. But scan his posts. Look at his focus. Our champion of international law and all things good seems far more energized when the target is Israel. There is a term for such a bias ...

[cnorman18]

I apologize for ending this debate abruptly, but I find that I must.

I have made it a rule not to debate Israel on this forum for almost two years, and I regret breaking that rule for this thread. It brings out something in me that I don't like, and would rather leave specious arguments unanswered than go to that place. Injustice outrages me, and outrage doesn't make for civility and respect.

I apologize for violating my own standards here. I feel very strongly indeed about Israel, and I think justly so; but answering arguments that make me angry makes me into a bit of a fanatic myself, and I don't like being that.

In the interest of civility and the friendship and respect of those I debate, I once again apologize for my hostility and extreme statements, and I withdraw from the discussion - without prejudice to any of the issues involved.

Thanks for the discussion. Sorry I couldn't keep my cool.

[/center]