Opposition to the spread of Islam in Europe..

[VermilionUK]

Considering recent events in Europe, including the Swiss minaret ban, and anti-Islam protests in London, it seems there is growing opposition to the spread of Islam.

In another thread, the Swiss minaret ban was referred to as "a case of religious discrimination and racism"

Question for debate/discussion: is the opposition to the spread of Islam "a case of religious discrimination and racism", or is it the growing fear of extremist Muslims which is making non-muslims fearful of Islam?

[TrueReligion]

1st of all, There is no moderate muslims in Islam,moderate muslims are of worst kind, who destroy the name of Islam, and they are the main terrorists, good muslims, reject terrorism, but these good muslims are in reward are termed as terrorist.

With an opinion like that, you're not too far away from being one of those "extremist" Muslims.

This is your assumption, you have to show what a moderate muslim is, because in all religious scripture of Islam, there is no such muslim, care to show? otherwise your assertion can be taken here as personal offense

The moderate muslims which you mean, are the one who walk in UK roads, with play cards, which you showed here. and from nowhere, they can be called as muslims, just by keeping name no one becomes muslims, you have to folow the scripture.

So a Muslim cannot be a "true" Muslim if they live by Western standards? Also, what parts of the scripture are they not following if they live in the UK?

Why a Imam of Masjid in UK is moderate muslim or extremist muslim? Im not talking of all the muslims living in UK, im talking about the one who is follwing scripture and 1 who dont follow

Just tell me why west is not afraid of those religions even I showed that since long time they are doing terrorist attacks.

Like I said, I cannot speak for the whole of "the West", however I suspect that it's because extremists in other religions are rejected by the majority of the non-extreme followers of that religion - however, in Islam, non-extreme Muslims seem to have no objection to extremist Muslims, and those who do object to them seem to be a minority.

No, once you are debating, you have to get the knowledge of all, otherwise its not a debate, its call attack.

Lets face it, you have shown that you do not object to the extremists, and you've even gone to the point of calling moderate Muslims "the worst kind". In effect, you have chose to stand up for the extremists, rather than the peaceful moderates - which is concerning to say the least.

But you never showed any thing, that what a moderate muslim is, care to show from the religious scripture, as we need evidence here not statements

[VermilionUK]

But you never showed any thing, that what a moderate muslim is, care to show from the religious scripture, as we need evidence here not statements

The term "moderate" is widely known; it describes a person of an intermediate, or "neutral" position. The term "moderate" is not used specifically to describe a religious person, as it can be used to describe a person's stance on many subjects, such as politics.

When using the term "moderate" to describe a Muslim, it means the Muslim is neutral - they are neither "extreme" or "pro-Western", and are of peaceful nature.

I hope you understand what I have said. If not then feel free to ask for a further explanation.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Lets face it, you have shown that you do not object to the extremists, and you've even gone to the point of calling moderate Muslims "the worst kind". In effect, you have chose to stand up for the extremists, rather than the peaceful moderates - which is concerning to say the least.

Let's be sure that we do not have language slippage here. I suspect (hope) that by 'moderate' Muslims he may have intended 'modern' Muslims.

[Jayhawker Soule]

I think it critically important to oppose and impede the spread of terrorism perpetrated in the name of Islam. The least effective way to do this is by fanning the flames of Islamophobia. The most effective way is to build meaningful and respectful ties with the Islamic community, enlisting and encouraging their leadership in the identification of extremist elements.

"We don't want your kind here." is rank bigotry and guaranteed to intensify the very thing it fears while shattering any chance of an effective alliance, much less meaningful community.

At the same time, I would suggest that Muslims demonstrate an understanding that the phobia in Islamophobia is not without foundation. It is simply not enough to assert that "real" Muslims are nice. Much more effort needs to be done in the area of community outreach and education; nothing promotes Islamophobia so much as insularity. And the efforts aimed at policing their own ranks needs to be far more public.

• Nothing could match the import of seeing a few dozen extremist scum run off the square by a few hundred Muslims committed to counteracting the pollution of Islam's image.
• Nothing could be more effective than thousands of Swiss citizens, Muslim and non-Muslim, marching under the banner "Minarets Yes - Terrorism No!"

I live near a fairly active Islamic Community Center, and I have yet to see any hint of outreach. That is a real shame.

[TrueReligion]

But you never showed any thing, that what a moderate muslim is, care to show from the religious scripture, as we need evidence here not statements

The term "moderate" is widely known; it describes a person of an intermediate, or "neutral" position. The term "moderate" is not used specifically to describe a religious person, as it can be used to describe a person's stance on many subjects, such as politics.

When using the term "moderate" to describe a Muslim, it means the Muslim is neutral - they are neither "extreme" or "pro-Western", and are of peaceful nature.

I hope you understand what I have said. If not then feel free to ask for a further explanation.

But in Islam, there is nothing as neutral or standing in between. Thats why I told you, give me reference from Islamic scripture, you re giving definition from Dictionary. Ofcourse this definition every1 knows here.
So try again, and bring something relevant to what is ask from you now.

[VermilionUK]

But you never showed any thing, that what a moderate muslim is, care to show from the religious scripture, as we need evidence here not statements

The term "moderate" is widely known; it describes a person of an intermediate, or "neutral" position. The term "moderate" is not used specifically to describe a religious person, as it can be used to describe a person's stance on many subjects, such as politics.

When using the term "moderate" to describe a Muslim, it means the Muslim is neutral - they are neither "extreme" or "pro-Western", and are of peaceful nature.

I hope you understand what I have said. If not then feel free to ask for a further explanation.

But in Islam, there is nothing as neutral or standing in between. Thats why I told you, give me reference from Islamic scripture, you re giving definition from Dictionary. Ofcourse this definition every1 knows here.
So try again, and bring something relevant to what is ask from you now.

There's no part of Islamic scripture that I know of which refers to "moderate" Muslims. Like I said, the term moderate can be used to describe any position - it is merely a label.

[VermilionUK]

The most effective way is to build meaningful and respectful ties with the Islamic community, enlisting and encouraging their leadership in the identification of extremist elements.

I agree, however it is difficult when some Muslims simply refuse to make any form of contact with non-muslims in the community.

At the same time, I would suggest that Muslims demonstrate an understanding that the phobia in Islamophobia is not without foundation.

Again, I agree. This has been part of what I've been trying to say, although perhaps I failed to get across my message accurately.

It is simply not enough to assert that "real" Muslims are nice. Much more effort needs to be done in the area of community outreach and education; nothing promotes Islamophobia so much as insularity. And the efforts aimed at policing their own ranks needs to be far more public.

• Nothing could match the import of seeing a few dozen extremist scum run off the square by a few hundred Muslims committed to counteracting the pollution of Islam's image.
• Nothing could be more effective than thousands of Swiss citizens, Muslim and non-Muslim, marching under the banner "Minarets Yes - Terrorism No!"

I live near a fairly active Islamic Community Center, and I have yet to see any hint of outreach. That is a real shame.

Yup, but until the Muslim community make that step then we can't get anywhere. It's no good if they continuously play the racism/discrimination card whenever there is a discussion of terrorism and how to deal with it.

[TrueReligion]

But you never showed any thing, that what a moderate muslim is, care to show from the religious scripture, as we need evidence here not statements

The term "moderate" is widely known; it describes a person of an intermediate, or "neutral" position. The term "moderate" is not used specifically to describe a religious person, as it can be used to describe a person's stance on many subjects, such as politics.

When using the term "moderate" to describe a Muslim, it means the Muslim is neutral - they are neither "extreme" or "pro-Western", and are of peaceful nature.

I hope you understand what I have said. If not then feel free to ask for a further explanation.

But in Islam, there is nothing as neutral or standing in between. Thats why I told you, give me reference from Islamic scripture, you re giving definition from Dictionary. Ofcourse this definition every1 knows here.
So try again, and bring something relevant to what is ask from you now.

There's no part of Islamic scripture that I know of which refers to "moderate" Muslims. Like I said, the term moderate can be used to describe any position - it is merely a label.

Thats why I said, these moderate muslims are of worst class, as the tend to change the teachings of Islam, but you like them, because you dont have basic knowledge of Islam.

[TrueReligion]

The most effective way is to build meaningful and respectful ties with the Islamic community, enlisting and encouraging their leadership in the identification of extremist elements.

I agree, however it is difficult when some Muslims simply refuse to make any form of contact with non-muslims in the community.

At the same time, I would suggest that Muslims demonstrate an understanding that the phobia in Islamophobia is not without foundation.

Again, I agree. This has been part of what I've been trying to say, although perhaps I failed to get across my message accurately.

It is simply not enough to assert that "real" Muslims are nice. Much more effort needs to be done in the area of community outreach and education; nothing promotes Islamophobia so much as insularity. And the efforts aimed at policing their own ranks needs to be far more public.

• Nothing could match the import of seeing a few dozen extremist scum run off the square by a few hundred Muslims committed to counteracting the pollution of Islam's image.
• Nothing could be more effective than thousands of Swiss citizens, Muslim and non-Muslim, marching under the banner "Minarets Yes - Terrorism No!"

I live near a fairly active Islamic Community Center, and I have yet to see any hint of outreach. That is a real shame.

Yup, but until the Muslim community make that step then we can't get anywhere. It's no good if they continuously play the racism/discrimination card whenever there is a discussion of terrorism and how to deal with it.

I think this statement need to be check again, as muslim community is always trying to built good ties with non-muslims, and trying best to remove of terrorism as alabel given to Islam.
But unfortunatly, some states are playing political game, by charging these communities of terrorism activities , dats why muslims are avoiing now such kind of communities.
But anyway, I pasted 1 commetee circulation, which clearly shows that muslims living in west, are doing best to cut down this so call terrorist attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associatio ... m_Scholars

http://www.secularmuslims.com/scholarsfatwa.php

But, on the other side, western non-muslims should also play vital role in this, and they should be positive towards muslims, so to make enviroment good between each other, rather than bringing more hatred towards muslims,which wll never bring goodwill between the 2

[VermilionUK]

I think this statement need to be check again, as muslim community is always trying to built good ties with non-muslims, and trying best to remove of terrorism as alabel given to Islam.
But unfortunatly, some states are playing political game, by charging these communities of terrorism activities , dats why muslims are avoiing now such kind of communities.
But anyway, I pasted 1 commetee circulation, which clearly shows that muslims living in west, are doing best to cut down this so call terrorist attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associatio ... m_Scholars

http://www.secularmuslims.com/scholarsfatwa.php

But, on the other side, western non-muslims should also play vital role in this, and they should be positive towards muslims, so to make enviroment good between each other, rather than bringing more hatred towards muslims,which wll never bring goodwill between the 2

Yes, there are large organisations of Muslims who do try and build ties with non-muslims, and that is what we need more of.

However, like I said, there are many Muslims on the other side who are more vocal. An example is a Muslim such as yourself - who called moderate Muslims "the worst kind" and the "worst class". It is this attitude which diminishes the good work of moderate Muslims who seek to build these peaceful ties which you have given examples of.

Could you explain your own position on Muslim-Western ties? Because on the one hand, you say that Muslims are trying to build peaceful ties, but you have also shown that you do not like the moderate Muslims who seek to build these ties, and in other threads you have justified the Muslim protesters who seek to kill non-muslims.