Opposition to the spread of Islam in Europe..

[VermilionUK]

Considering recent events in Europe, including the Swiss minaret ban, and anti-Islam protests in London, it seems there is growing opposition to the spread of Islam.

In another thread, the Swiss minaret ban was referred to as "a case of religious discrimination and racism"

Question for debate/discussion: is the opposition to the spread of Islam "a case of religious discrimination and racism", or is it the growing fear of extremist Muslims which is making non-muslims fearful of Islam?

[TrueReligion]

I think this statement need to be check again, as muslim community is always trying to built good ties with non-muslims, and trying best to remove of terrorism as alabel given to Islam.
But unfortunatly, some states are playing political game, by charging these communities of terrorism activities , dats why muslims are avoiing now such kind of communities.
But anyway, I pasted 1 commetee circulation, which clearly shows that muslims living in west, are doing best to cut down this so call terrorist attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associatio ... m_Scholars

http://www.secularmuslims.com/scholarsfatwa.php

But, on the other side, western non-muslims should also play vital role in this, and they should be positive towards muslims, so to make enviroment good between each other, rather than bringing more hatred towards muslims,which wll never bring goodwill between the 2

Yes, there are large organisations of Muslims who do try and build ties with non-muslims, and that is what we need more of.

However, like I said, there are many Muslims on the other side who are more vocal. An example is a Muslim such as yourself - who called moderate Muslims "the worst kind" and the "worst class". It is this attitude which diminishes the good work of moderate Muslims who seek to build these peaceful ties which you have given examples of.

Could you explain your own position on Muslim-Western ties? Because on the one hand, you say that Muslims are trying to build peaceful ties, but you have also shown that you do not like the moderate Muslims who seek to build these ties, and in other threads you have justified the Muslim protesters who seek to kill non-muslims.

Again VUK, you are mixing moderate muslims with good muslims.
Let me clarify you once again.

Moderate Muslims are those, who dont like to follow the teachings of Quran and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), like for them, religion is secondry thing, they are trying to make ties with non-muslims, but no in the interest of Islam, in their own interest, dats why we call them worst kind of muslims.

Good muslims are those, who perfectly follow the teachings of Quran and of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and live in a perfect path, not fighting with any1, being polite and good with others, specially non-muslims. They also are doing their best to make the ties with non-muslims good, notfor their own good, but for the sake of Islam. Thats the reason I'am here also on this site, to clear the misconceptions of Islam.

Hope you understand now the difference between the two.

[Goat]

Again VUK, you are mixing moderate muslims with good muslims.
Let me clarify you once again.

Moderate Muslims are those, who dont like to follow the teachings of Quran and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), like for them, religion is secondry thing, they are trying to make ties with non-muslims, but no in the interest of Islam, in their own interest, dats why we call them worst kind of muslims.

Good muslims are those, who perfectly follow the teachings of Quran and of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and live in a perfect path, not fighting with any1, being polite and good with others, specially non-muslims. They also are doing their best to make the ties with non-muslims good, notfor their own good, but for the sake of Islam. Thats the reason I'am here also on this site, to clear the misconceptions of Islam.

Hope you understand now the difference between the two.

Yet, the ones that claim they are following the teaching of the Quran, are the people who do such things as [url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100102/ap_ ... cartoonist] attempt to assassinate cartoonists [/url]
because of perception. This does not lead the average person to distinguish between a 'moderate' Muslim, a 'good' Muslim, and a radical Muslim. As long as the radical Muslims keep on doing things like this, you will see distrust of Islam in general.

[VermilionUK]

Moderate Muslims are those, who dont like to follow the teachings of Quran and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), like for them, religion is secondry thing, they are trying to make ties with non-muslims, but no in the interest of Islam, in their own interest, dats why we call them worst kind of muslims.

And that's why there will never be full ties between Muslims and non-Muslims. Muslims that are trying to show that they can integrate or co-exist peacefully with other societies are criticised by other Muslims (such as you) for not following the Quran.

However, I disagree that moderates are working "in their own interests". I believe that they are trying to show that Muslims can co-exist peacefully among Western people.

Thats the reason I'am here also on this site, to clear the misconceptions of Islam.

I don't think you're really helping to clear up the misconceptions of Islam with statements like these:

In reference to moderate muslims

"But in Islam, there is nothing as neutral or standing in between"

In reference to Muslim protesters who proclaim to "be prepared for the real holocaust", amongst other things:

"And it was right, and justified as well"

In reference to "the West":

"Ofcourse racism is what only west has given to world, nothing else, so it should be stop, unfortunatly no other religion have power and courage to do that, so Muslims should stand and stop this bad and unhuman culture of western people"

I appreciate that these statements do not reflect the opinion of the majority of Muslims, but I'm afraid your statements only bolster the "misconceptions of Islam"

[TrueReligion]

Again VUK, you are mixing moderate muslims with good muslims.
Let me clarify you once again.

Moderate Muslims are those, who dont like to follow the teachings of Quran and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), like for them, religion is secondry thing, they are trying to make ties with non-muslims, but no in the interest of Islam, in their own interest, dats why we call them worst kind of muslims.

Good muslims are those, who perfectly follow the teachings of Quran and of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), and live in a perfect path, not fighting with any1, being polite and good with others, specially non-muslims. They also are doing their best to make the ties with non-muslims good, notfor their own good, but for the sake of Islam. Thats the reason I'am here also on this site, to clear the misconceptions of Islam.

Hope you understand now the difference between the two.

Yet, the ones that claim they are following the teaching of the Quran, are the people who do such things as [url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100102/ap_ ... cartoonist] attempt to assassinate cartoonists [/url]
because of perception. This does not lead the average person to distinguish between a 'moderate' Muslim, a 'good' Muslim, and a radical Muslim. As long as the radical Muslims keep on doing things like this, you will see distrust of Islam in general.

Once again Goat, this is the problem here, if any muslim tries to do bad, why you name all muslims in same way? Its same like this, we call whole of christianty responsible for the murder of millions of Jews done by Hitler,
And we should make responsible whole of Jews, for the terrirost activites done by Zionists, right?

[Goat]

Once again Goat, this is the problem here, if any muslim tries to do bad, why you name all muslims in same way? Its same like this, we call whole of christianty responsible for the murder of millions of Jews done by Hitler,
And we should make responsible whole of Jews, for the terrirost activites done by Zionists, right?

No,..but when it comes to Islam ,at the current moment, the percentage that are willing to be violent for perceived insults is much higher than other religions. Not only do their actions be more extreme ,there is a higher percentage that will be that extreme.

Until that is solved,you will find people find all people suspect. The Islamic community will have to solve the problem of it's radicals before the fear factor goes away.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Moderate Muslims are those, who dont like to follow the teachings of Quran and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), like for them, religion is secondry thing, they are trying to make ties with non-muslims, but no in the interest of Islam, in their own interest, dats why we call them worst kind of muslims.

And that's why there will never be full ties between Muslims and non-Muslims. Muslims that are trying to show that they can integrate or co-exist peacefully with other societies are criticised by other Muslims (such as you) for not following the Quran.

That statement was totally senseless. Why would the fact that "Muslims that are trying to show that they can integrate or co-exist peacefully with other societies are criticised by other Muslims (such as you) for not following the Quran" lead inescapably to the conclusion that "there will never be full ties between [undifferentiated (sic!)] Muslims and non-Muslims?" And what the hell constitutes "full ties"? You seem so use to -- so committed to -- painting sweeping caricatures with a broad brush that you sputter category errors without hesitation and, seemingly, without embarrassment.

[VermilionUK]

Why would the fact that "Muslims that are trying to show that they can integrate or co-exist peacefully with other societies are criticised by other Muslims (such as you) for not following the Quran" lead inescapably to the conclusion that "there will never be full ties between [undifferentiated (sic!)] Muslims and non-Muslims?"

I stated it because those Muslims who seek to build relations with "the West" will be (and are, as TrueReligion demonstrated) looked down upon - because they are "not following the Quran".

Therefore there will never be "full" ties (meaning good relations with the whole Muslim community) - because of this opposition to Muslims who are seen as more Westernised.

So there will always be two groups; those who live with the West peacefully, and those who simply don't want to - hence the reason I said there would never be "full" ties.

[TrueReligion]

Once again Goat, this is the problem here, if any muslim tries to do bad, why you name all muslims in same way? Its same like this, we call whole of christianty responsible for the murder of millions of Jews done by Hitler,
And we should make responsible whole of Jews, for the terrirost activites done by Zionists, right?

No,..but when it comes to Islam ,at the current moment, the percentage that are willing to be violent for perceived insults is much higher than other religions. Not only do their actions be more extreme ,there is a higher percentage that will be that extreme.

Until that is solved,you will find people find all people suspect. The Islamic community will have to solve the problem of it's radicals before the fear factor goes away.

Thats what Islamic councils are doing, they are having debates, confrences , but same time non-muslims should also realize and behave, as not to adopt a way that wil bring problems in the world.
Like what was the need of making cartoon? if you call it freedom of speech, than the freedom of wearing veil and scarf should also be granted to Muslim girls. Why there is double standard? this double standard is bringing violance, and hatred between west and muslims.

Rather than telling muslims to be peaceful and etc etc, I think if west should also behave peacefully, and avoid such kind of practices, there won;t be any vioalance at all. You can;t say that you will keep on insulting muslims, and than telling as well that Muslims should remain calm etc etc.

[TrueReligion]

And that's why there will never be full ties between Muslims and non-Muslims. Muslims that are trying to show that they can integrate or co-exist peacefully with other societies are criticised by other Muslims (such as you) for not following the Quran.

However, I disagree that moderates are working "in their own interests". I believe that they are trying to show that Muslims can co-exist peacefully among Western people.

You are still confusing the point, you are thinking that moderate muslims are only those, who are living in west, dats wrong my friend, there are good muslims as well living peacefully in west, who are bringing more closer ties with non-muslims, in the interest of Islam, rather than those moderate muslims who are working for their own interest.
You are accusing me, but I myself have many non-muslims friends in west, and they understand fuly the situation,and some of them even become muslims.

I don't think you're really helping to clear up the misconceptions of Islam with statements like these:

In reference to moderate muslims

"But in Islam, there is nothing as neutral or standing in between"[/i]

Ofcourse, in Islam there is nothing neutral or standing in between, 1 person should either be fuly devoted muslim, or not at all, you can;t be in between.

In reference to Muslim protesters who proclaim to "be prepared for the real holocaust", amongst other things:

"And it was right, and justified as well"

That I cleared already the point, if you throw stone to some1, be prepare something willcome back to you as well.

In reference to "the West":

Ofcourse racism is what only west has given to world, nothing else, so it should be stop, unfortunatly no other religion have power and courage to do that, so Muslims should stand and stop this bad and unhuman culture of western people"[/i]

I appreciate that these statements do not reflect the opinion of the majority of Muslims, but I'm afraid your statements only bolster the "misconceptions of Islam"[/quote]

Do you disagree with this statement? maybe you forgot it was related to our post of Ban of Minaret, for which even western non-muslim news paper called it racist and discrrimination towards muslims.

[TrueReligion]

Why would the fact that "Muslims that are trying to show that they can integrate or co-exist peacefully with other societies are criticised by other Muslims (such as you) for not following the Quran" lead inescapably to the conclusion that "there will never be full ties between [undifferentiated (sic!)] Muslims and non-Muslims?"

I stated it because those Muslims who seek to build relations with "the West" will be (and are, as TrueReligion demonstrated) looked down upon - because they are "not following the Quran".

Therefore there will never be "full" ties (meaning good relations with the whole Muslim community) - because of this opposition to Muslims who are seen as more Westernised.

So there will always be two groups; those who live with the West peacefully, and those who simply don't want to - hence the reason I said there would never be "full" ties.

I think in your mind you have this thought that the moderate muslims are only living in west, and others are not living in west, this is wrong my friend.

The good muslims to truly follow Quran, are also living in west, without any problem with non-muslims, and lving peace fully.

You can search for these persons, they are famous and are among good muslims, who bring even ties with non-muslims to bring peace in world.

Abdul RAHIM Green-> England
Yasar Fazaga->USA
Zain Bikha-> South Africa
Jaffar Idris -> USA
Yousef Estes -> USA
Yousef Islam -> UK.

There are even thousands like these, but unfortunatly, you dont see them as the ideal muslims, I dont know still if you understand what is moderate muslim and a good muslim