Pakistan court "an eye for an eye" punishment

[VermilionUK]

Just read this article on the BBC website. The crime is horrific:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8425820.stm

A Pakistani court has ordered that two men have their ears and noses cut off, as punishment for doing the same to a woman who refused to marry one of them.....

Government prosecutor Ehtisham Qadir said the punishment had been awarded in accordance with the Islamic principle of "an eye for an eye".

Sher Mohammad and Amanat abducted Fazeelat Bibi as she returned home from work at a brick kiln in the Raiwind area of Lahore, the court heard.

"They put a noose around her neck, and then cut off her ears and nose," Mr Qadir told the BBC.

Questions for debate/discussion:

Is the punishment justified and moral?

Is the phrase "the punishment had been awarded in accordance with the Islamic principle of "an eye for an eye", an accurate portrayal of Islamic principles and morals?

*Note*
This thread should not be used to attack Islamic morals. The purpose of this thread is only to provide discussion of the "an eye for an eye" punishment, and discuss its relationship with Islamic principles.

[FinalEnigma]

the problem with that is that that kind of...spiteful? punishment for a crime, given to that type of person, will not end the problem. These two guys are going to be spiteful and angry for the rest of their lives - and might try to take it out on the woman.

For something so serious as deliberate disfigurement of another human being in such a disgusting manner, the only sensible punishments I can see are life in prison or execution. These men should not be allowed into a position where they could harm others again.

[JoeyKnothead]

the problem with that is that that kind of...spiteful? punishment for a crime, given to that type of person, will not end the problem. These two guys are going to be spiteful and angry for the rest of their lives - and might try to take it out on the woman.

For something so serious as deliberate disfigurement of another human being in such a disgusting manner, the only sensible punishments I can see are life in prison or execution. These men should not be allowed into a position where they could harm others again.

I'd add that I wouldn't object to these men having their ears and noses cut off, without pain medicine - then sent to prison for life or execution.

It's been my experience such bullies will only be swayed by their own tactics.

[FinalEnigma]

the problem with that is that that kind of...spiteful? punishment for a crime, given to that type of person, will not end the problem. These two guys are going to be spiteful and angry for the rest of their lives - and might try to take it out on the woman.

For something so serious as deliberate disfigurement of another human being in such a disgusting manner, the only sensible punishments I can see are life in prison or execution. These men should not be allowed into a position where they could harm others again.

I'd add that I wouldn't object to these men having their ears and noses cut off, without pain medicine - then sent to prison for life or execution.

It's been my experience such bullies will only be swayed by their own tactics.

Personally I'd object to cutting off their ears and noses and then executing them. cutting off their ears and noses first doesn't really do anything except make us feel righteous and make them suffer needlessly. If you are going to execute them, cutting off their ears and noses becomes petty.

[VermilionUK]

the problem with that is that that kind of...spiteful? punishment for a crime, given to that type of person, will not end the problem. These two guys are going to be spiteful and angry for the rest of their lives - and might try to take it out on the woman.

For something so serious as deliberate disfigurement of another human being in such a disgusting manner, the only sensible punishments I can see are life in prison or execution. These men should not be allowed into a position where they could harm others again.

I'd add that I wouldn't object to these men having their ears and noses cut off, without pain medicine - then sent to prison for life or execution.

It's been my experience such bullies will only be swayed by their own tactics.

Personally I'd object to cutting off their ears and noses and then executing them. cutting off their ears and noses first doesn't really do anything except make us feel righteous and make them suffer needlessly. If you are going to execute them, cutting off their ears and noses becomes petty.

I see your point. This punishment seems to be a symbol of revenge more than anything, and I believe revenge and the law system should never mix.

Although, had I been the one to give out the punishment, I think it would be difficult to find a reason as to why they should not suffer as much as the woman did.

Anyway, I'd welcome any Muslims to this thread who can shed some light on whether the "eye for an eye" punishment is an accurate representation of Islamic principles, as indicated in the article.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 4:

Personally I'd object to cutting off their ears and noses and then executing them. cutting off their ears and noses first doesn't really do anything except make us feel righteous and make them suffer needlessly. If you are going to execute them, cutting off their ears and noses becomes petty.

I respectfully disagree. When one so harms another, we show our compassion towards those harmed by visiting the exact same horror (or worse) on their attacker. If the bully is petty, we show him petty. If the bully is violent, we show him violence.

As the resent debate about folks using insulting signatures shows, there was little to no action taken until the bully had their insult served back to them. Only then was the insult silenced.

Fight fire with fire. The bully will not stop until he himself is bullied. The oppressor will oppress until he himself is oppressed. These are lessons of history, and not mere opinions.

[FinalEnigma]

From Post 4:

Personally I'd object to cutting off their ears and noses and then executing them. cutting off their ears and noses first doesn't really do anything except make us feel righteous and make them suffer needlessly. If you are going to execute them, cutting off their ears and noses becomes petty.

I respectfully disagree. When one so harms another, we show our compassion towards those harmed by visiting the exact same horror (or worse) on their attacker. If the bully is petty, we show him petty. If the bully is violent, we show him violence.

As the resent debate about folks using insulting signatures shows, there was little to no action taken until the bully had their insult served back to them. Only then was the insult silenced.

Fight fire with fire. The bully will not stop until he himself is bullied. The oppressor will oppress until he himself is oppressed. These are lessons of history, and not mere opinions.

Well, I imagine killing the bully or oppressor works as well if not better for stopping their bullying/oppression.

and say we do decide to cut off their ears and noses. Who do we get to do it? a professional torturer, used for delivering punishments to vile criminals? I believe that somebody should not condemn others to a punishment they themselves are not willing to carry out.


Would you be willing to take a knife to the men's ears, and saw through the cartilage to remove it? then the nose?
Then, after you've given them a while to suffer, drop them to their knees and shoot them in the back of the head?

Death? Execution? I could walk that road, though I don't like it.
Torture, for the sole purpose of inflicting needless pain before a person's death? that road I won't touch.

[T-mash]

I think the most important sentences in the article is the following:

"Sentence was passed on Monday under a rarely invoked Islamic law dating from the 1980s."
"The BBC's M Ilyas Khan in Islamabad says punishments prescribed under the laws have rarely been awarded, and never carried out"

Seems to me this is a very rare occurrence in response to a devastating crime. Assuming the woman lived she would not be able to show her face any more to anyone. The woman in her 20's was kidnapped and mutilated like that because she didn't want to marry a guy. The verdict was eye for an eye and sentenced to prison for life.

I wouldn't say this is an accurate portrayal of Islamic principles and morals. I mean look at this thread. Not many would object to hanging these people, but are those an accurate portrayal of our morals? Not really. It seems this was seen as a severe case that needed a severe punishment.

and say we do decide to cut off their ears and noses. Who do we get to do it? a professional torturer, used for delivering punishments to vile criminals?

The woman got this treatment from some men with probably a tool like an ordinary knife, no anaesthetics, no disinfections, no trained personnel. The guys will probably get all of that and surgical removal.

I believe that somebody should not condemn others to a punishment they themselves are not willing to carry out. [...] Would you be willing to take a knife to the men's ears, and saw through the cartilage to remove it? then the nose?

No problem ^^

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 7:

Well, I imagine killing the bully or oppressor works as well if not better for stopping their bullying/oppression.

I only advocate the death penalty for murder, rape, and paedophilia, which is rape.

and say we do decide to cut off their ears and noses. Who do we get to do it? a professional torturer, used for delivering punishments to vile criminals? I believe that somebody should not condemn others to a punishment they themselves are not willing to carry out.

Sounds like I just found a new career.

I don't consider punishing someone in the same fashion to be torture, so much as I consider it a just punishment. Don't harm others and there's no need for yourself being harmed.

Would you be willing to take a knife to the men's ears, and saw through the cartilage to remove it? then the nose?
Then, after you've given them a while to suffer, drop them to their knees and shoot them in the back of the head?

I'd whistle that whistle while you work song. I have no compassion for folks who'd visit violence on innocents.

I'd rather they not be shot in the head - cost of the bullet and painless death. Hang 'em. Make 'em watch dramas. But visit their violence upon them.

Death? Execution? I could walk that road, though I don't like it.
Torture, for the sole purpose of inflicting needless pain before a person's death? that road I won't touch.

Again, I don't consider it torture so much as I consider it a right and just punishment. Don't lop off other folks' body parts and we won't lop yours off.

[FinalEnigma]

From Post 7:

Well, I imagine killing the bully or oppressor works as well if not better for stopping their bullying/oppression.

I only advocate the death penalty for murder, rape, and paedophilia, which is rape.

I agree with those ones, though personally I'd add severe child abuse(whether sexual or not), and probably torture as well as reasons for the death penalty.

and say we do decide to cut off their ears and noses. Who do we get to do it? a professional torturer, used for delivering punishments to vile criminals? I believe that somebody should not condemn others to a punishment they themselves are not willing to carry out.

Sounds like I just found a new career.

I don't consider punishing someone in the same fashion to be torture, so much as I consider it a just punishment. Don't harm others and there's no need for yourself being harmed.

Would you be willing to take a knife to the men's ears, and saw through the cartilage to remove it? then the nose?
Then, after you've given them a while to suffer, drop them to their knees and shoot them in the back of the head?

I'd whistle that whistle while you work song. I have no compassion for folks who'd visit violence on innocents.

I'd rather they not be shot in the head - cost of the bullet and painless death. Hang 'em. Make 'em watch dramas. But visit their violence upon them.

Death? Execution? I could walk that road, though I don't like it.
Torture, for the sole purpose of inflicting needless pain before a person's death? that road I won't touch.

Again, I don't consider it torture so much as I consider it a right and just punishment. Don't lop off other folks' body parts and we won't lop yours off.

Hmm. Guess we simply disagree here.