Catholic Ban On Women Priests

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Joshua
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Catholic Ban On Women Priests

Post #1

Post by Joshua »

A new report by the leading charity – backed by a legal opinion from a leading QC – says the Bill will make it impossible for all churches and faith-based charities to insist that their senior staff lead private lives in accordance with their religious beliefs.

CARE said that, under the Bill, which will be considered by the House of Lords on Monday, it would be illegal for a Christian charity to sack a senior manager for adultery or living an openly gay lifestyle.

The same rules would, it added, apply to Muslim and Jewish churches and charities.

However, the biggest potential showdown is likely to be between the government and Britain's 4.3 million Catholics over the church's tradition of an all-male, celibate priesthood.

Previous legislation in 2007, also backed by Ms Harman, the Commons Leader and equality minister, forced the closure of two Catholic adoption agencies for refusing to comply with new laws requiring them to place children with gay couples.

CARE's report – A Little Bit Against Discrimination? – warns that the proposals contained in the Bill are a serious threat to religious liberty in Britain.

John Bowers QC said in a legal opinion for CARE that the Bill could make it unlawful for a church to require a priest or minister to be male, celibate and unmarried, or not in a civil partnership.

When the Bill, which aims to wrap up all existing equality legislation in one piece of law, was debated in the Commons, ministers MPs tabled more than 100 amendments to it – but ministers imposed a "guillotine" on the Bill and prevented most of them being discussed.

The report's author, Dr Daniel Boucher, said: ''The Equality Bill is a direct assault on the freedom of all faith-based organizations, from churches to charities. This Bill will make it unlawful for those organizations to employ people who are committed to a particular set of religious beliefs.

"This Bill in its current form is a further blow to the faith-based voluntary sector and will leave many people unable to access services they always have.

"This legislation must be revised to recognize our plural society. It must recognize that there are many people in our country who have deeply held religious views and convictions, rather than trying to impose some modern day Stalinistic version of society where there is only ever one view that is right, the Government's."

Overall, the Bill is designed to deliver greater equality between people of different gender, race, religion and class.

However, it has attracted criticism, particularly from businesses. It paves the way for 'gender pay audits' in large companies, obliging employers to disclose the average hourly pay they award male and female workers.

The planned legislation would also allow employers to give preference to female or non-white job applicants over equally qualified white men.

Public bodies would have a legal duty to narrow the gap between the rich and poor in the provision of services. For example, local authorities would be expected to do more to help children from poorer backgrounds.

If passed, the Bill could also oblige public sector bodies to consider the "gender balance" among employees of companies bidding for all government contracts.

But Michael Foster, Minister for Equality on the Bill said: “The Equality Bill will still allow churches to hire only male clergy and will let faith-based charities continue to recruit people of the same faith where this is a requirement of the job, such as care staff who may also be asked to pray with the people they look after.

"We have been absolutely clear on this throughout the Bill's passage, but as there has been some misunderstanding around our intentions we will amend the Bill to make this clear beyond doubt.�


What is your opinion on this do you think this "Equality Bill" should be passed?

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McCulloch
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Post #11

Post by McCulloch »

McCulloch wrote: Should secular governments make an exception for the Roman Catholic church and a handful of other religious organizations?

Many countries have constitutional protection of human rights expressed in Canada.......
TheCatholic wrote: Frankly, I don't give a tinker's damn what Canada has.
I was simply using it as an example. Many other countries protect human rights. Other than the fact that they wish to operate in my country, I don't give a tinkers dam what the Roman Catholic Church has.
TheCatholic wrote: The Pope is the sovereign of Vatican City. He does not answer to Canada or anyone else.
If they wish to operate branch offices in various countries, perform weddings, hold property, employ people and other stuff, then they are, within the borders of each sovereign country, answerable to the laws of that country.
TheCatholic wrote: But we will not. Women do not have any "right" to be a Catholic priest. Since when is being a Catholic priest a human right?
No, the right I refer to is the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of one's sex. The Roman Catholic church has a blatant and overt discriminatory practice with regard to hiring priests. Only men may apply.
TheCatholic wrote: And besides, you cut out the entire reason why it won't happen from your quote.
I ignored it because it is entirely irrelevant in my view. Simply put, the leaders of the Roman Catholic church believe that God told them not to hire women as priests. [sarcasm]OK, that makes it right. You've convinced me. [/sarcasm]
TheCatholic wrote: Go away, and take that drivel with you.
Your insightful refutation of my position has given me much to think about. Thank you for providing a well researched alternative point-of-view. The civility and respect with which you framed your response has given me pause to review my own conclusions on this matter.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

TheCatholic

Post #12

Post by TheCatholic »

Yes, yes, well, all that aside.....

There will never be a woman Catholic priest. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome and Vicar of Christ: He answers to God, not to earthly governments nor to Liberal fools.

However, I will grant that one unfortunate scenario could happen, the same one that happened in Henry VIII's England. Henry VIII basically scared the bejeesus out of the bishops regarding his divorce. They were weak men and they sided with him and against the pope. Of course, they were all excommunicated, and thus was born the Anglican church.

It is possible that the government could threaten bishops with this new law, that they might be weak and get scared, and go along with the law. In that event, any female priest would be excommunicated along with the bishop that ordained her. Eventually they'd all be out on their ear. If that happened, yes, you would see female priests of a sort, but since they would all be excommunicated by the Vatican, they would not be Catholics.

So my original statement stands: There will never be a woman Catholic priest.

cnorman18

Catholic Ban On Women Priests

Post #13

Post by cnorman18 »

TheCatholic wrote:Yes, yes, well, all that aside.....

There will never be a woman Catholic priest. The Pope is the Bishop of Rome and Vicar of Christ: He answers to God, not to earthly governments nor to Liberal fools.

However, I will grant that one unfortunate scenario could happen, the same one that happened in Henry VIII's England. Henry VIII basically scared the bejeesus out of the bishops regarding his divorce. They were weak men and they sided with him and against the pope. Of course, they were all excommunicated, and thus was born the Anglican church.

It is possible that the government could threaten bishops with this new law, that they might be weak and get scared, and go along with the law. In that event, any female priest would be excommunicated along with the bishop that ordained her. Eventually they'd all be out on their ear. If that happened, yes, you would see female priests of a sort, but since they would all be excommunicated by the Vatican, they would not be Catholics.

So my original statement stands: There will never be a woman Catholic priest.
Of course, at one time it was said that the Catholic Church would never agree that the Earth moved around the Sun. Both the Bible and the Magisterium said otherwise; that was the end of it.

Catholic doctrine can and does change, though with glacial slowness; and common sense (as opposed to "political correctness") can sometimes eventually prevail even over ossified dogma. It's been said that no one can understand the Catholic Church without grasping that in many ways, the RC Church is still a medieval institution. Male dominance, the demand for unquestioning and absolute obedience of the hierarchy, and the Divine Right of Kings (analogous to the infallibility of the Pope when speaking from the Chair of Peter) are all evidence for the truth of that observation. None of those have been helpful in the current crisis with which the Church struggles, i.e., decades of institutionalized and officially protected pedophilia and child rape - all of which was absolutely condoned and concealed, at administrative levels, by the Church.

The RCC is presently in a position where radical, fundamental change in the structure and authority of the Church is the only alternative to eventual extinction. The longer that these bishops and archbishops stay out of prison and remain priests - those who protected and shuffled around pedophile priests that they absolutely knew to be sexual predators, allowing them to continue their careers of serial child rape for decades - the longer those who protected those contemptible criminals stay out of prison, I say, the more of the faithful that will abandon the Church, and rightly so.

Perhaps if there were some women in the hierarchy, this horrendous coverup and continuation of the worst kind of crimes would not have been allowed to remain in place for so long.

Before the Church gets around to considering the ordination of women, it must consider and carry out the defrocking of a very great number of men, and cooperation with the authorities in their prosecution, in order to survive and retain its credibility. The Pope shaking his finger in their faces is not enough; resignations are not enough. Any church official who did not immediately report and turn in these predators, and immediately suspend them from any kind of contact with children at all pending trial, is absolutely guilty of conspiracy and complicity in their crimes. Any church official who does not immediately open all records on these matters for everyone, including the legal authorities, to see should go to prison for obstruction of justice.

The hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church does not, at present, have the moral authority to condemn anyone or anything. It has the right to confession and penance. Neither have yet happened. Those would involve a top-to-bottom revision of administrative policies and a great number of former churchmen in prison cells.

Flail

Post #14

Post by Flail »

Women priests might have more prediliction to turn pedophile priests over to authorities for prosecution...perhaps this is why they are not wanted in the priesthood.

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Post #15

Post by Goat »

Flail wrote:Women priests might have more prediliction to turn pedophile priests over to authorities for prosecution...perhaps this is why they are not wanted in the priesthood.
On the other hand , nuns have been accused of sexual abuse also

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Jul13.html

http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/catho ... so-accused


We must not forget that the RCC isn't the only denomination that has problems. It is just that because of their hierarchy, they had the structure to hide it better. There are the southern baptists too

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm

I am sure any denomination and any religion will have similar issues. It is not so much that it happens, but how do people react to it, and how do they try to prevent it.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

Flail

Re: Catholic Ban On Women Priests

Post #16

Post by Flail »

Joshua wrote:A new report by the leading charity – backed by a legal opinion from a leading QC – says the Bill will make it impossible for all churches and faith-based charities to insist that their senior staff lead private lives in accordance with their religious beliefs.

CARE said that, under the Bill, which will be considered by the House of Lords on Monday, it would be illegal for a Christian charity to sack a senior manager for adultery or living an openly gay lifestyle.

The same rules would, it added, apply to Muslim and Jewish churches and charities.

However, the biggest potential showdown is likely to be between the government and Britain's 4.3 million Catholics over the church's tradition of an all-male, celibate priesthood.

Previous legislation in 2007, also backed by Ms Harman, the Commons Leader and equality minister, forced the closure of two Catholic adoption agencies for refusing to comply with new laws requiring them to place children with gay couples.

CARE's report – A Little Bit Against Discrimination? – warns that the proposals contained in the Bill are a serious threat to religious liberty in Britain.

John Bowers QC said in a legal opinion for CARE that the Bill could make it unlawful for a church to require a priest or minister to be male, celibate and unmarried, or not in a civil partnership.

When the Bill, which aims to wrap up all existing equality legislation in one piece of law, was debated in the Commons, ministers MPs tabled more than 100 amendments to it – but ministers imposed a "guillotine" on the Bill and prevented most of them being discussed.

The report's author, Dr Daniel Boucher, said: ''The Equality Bill is a direct assault on the freedom of all faith-based organizations, from churches to charities. This Bill will make it unlawful for those organizations to employ people who are committed to a particular set of religious beliefs.

"This Bill in its current form is a further blow to the faith-based voluntary sector and will leave many people unable to access services they always have.

"This legislation must be revised to recognize our plural society. It must recognize that there are many people in our country who have deeply held religious views and convictions, rather than trying to impose some modern day Stalinistic version of society where there is only ever one view that is right, the Government's."

Overall, the Bill is designed to deliver greater equality between people of different gender, race, religion and class.

However, it has attracted criticism, particularly from businesses. It paves the way for 'gender pay audits' in large companies, obliging employers to disclose the average hourly pay they award male and female workers.

The planned legislation would also allow employers to give preference to female or non-white job applicants over equally qualified white men.

Public bodies would have a legal duty to narrow the gap between the rich and poor in the provision of services. For example, local authorities would be expected to do more to help children from poorer backgrounds.

If passed, the Bill could also oblige public sector bodies to consider the "gender balance" among employees of companies bidding for all government contracts.

But Michael Foster, Minister for Equality on the Bill said: “The Equality Bill will still allow churches to hire only male clergy and will let faith-based charities continue to recruit people of the same faith where this is a requirement of the job, such as care staff who may also be asked to pray with the people they look after.

"We have been absolutely clear on this throughout the Bill's passage, but as there has been some misunderstanding around our intentions we will amend the Bill to make this clear beyond doubt.�


What is your opinion on this do you think this "Equality Bill" should be passed?
Perhaps the Church should focus on screening pedophiles rather than women from the priesthood. Just think how much more money the Church would have for investing in the stock market if they would not have had to expend over 1 billion dollars on legal settlements.

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