Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

Current issues and things in the news

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Christianity in crisis?
Student
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:19 am
Location: Oregon

Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

Post #1

Post by Christianity in crisis? »

I believe same sex marriage is not a church issue when it comes to the law. Christians who try to ban same sex marriage are wrong, and should be consistent with the separation of church and state. BTW... I am an evangelical Christian against forms of legalized discrimination.

User avatar
McCulloch
Site Supporter
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

Post #151

Post by McCulloch »

Christianity in crisis? wrote:I believe same sex marriage is not a church issue when it comes to the law. Christians who try to ban same sex marriage are wrong, and should be consistent with the separation of church and state. BTW... I am an evangelical Christian against forms of legalized discrimination.
Emphasis mine.
daughterofthefaith wrote:If Christians are wrong in denouncing gay marriage why did Christ damn Sodom and Gomorrah and destroy them with fire and brimstone?? Gay marriage otherwise called Sodomy is condemned in the Bible! Any Christian who accepts homosexuality as just an 'alternative lifestyle' or a matter of human rights is wrong! We are told to follow Christ's example and he is anti-gay so, so should we! Christ gave Adam a woman for a wife - not a man!

Leviticus 18;22
Romans 1;27
Jude 1;7
I have no argument with the Christians who claim that their religion does not allow for homosexual behavior. I look at it much like I look at other religions' prohibition against pork. Your religion teaches that it is wrong to have a homosexual relationship; their religion teaches that it is wrong to eat pork. Neither religion should be the law of the land and neither religions' rules apply to me. It is a matter of human rights that your religious code cannot have the force of law.
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution wrote:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms wrote:Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
  • freedom of conscience and religion;
  • Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.
The Constitution of South Africa wrote:Everyone has the right to freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief and opinion.
European Convention on Human Rights wrote:Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, and to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
Universal Declaration of Human Rights wrote: Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

KCKID
Guru
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:29 pm
Location: Townsville, Australia

Re: Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

Post #152

Post by KCKID »

Hatuey wrote: [Replying to post 149 by KCKID]

The bible seems anti-gay, to me, as well as anti shellfish and anti wearing-clothes-made-of-two-different-types-of-cloth. I'm still waiting for all the protests on polyester/cotton blends and Red Lobster..
The Bible authors may well have been extremely prudish and anti-gay (as are many Christians today) but references to homosexuality in every case that I know of, biblically speaking, are in relation to temple prostitution and pagan idolatry. I'm not really concerned as to the authors' personal take on the matter but more on Bible exegesis. The events reported are PUBLIC events of pagan worship practices and do not concern themselves with what people might be doing sexually in private.

That said, I was addressing the contents of the post by daughterofthefaith in which she (?) made any number of scriptural errors that needed correction. To state that 'sodomy' equates to 'gay marriage' is ...well, words fail me.

I do agree with you re the other 'abominations' you mention. And, there are a heap more that Christians probably partake of on a regular basis. The sad thing is that they only know of one alleged 'abomination' and that's the one found in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. Even then most only parrot what they've repeatedly heard from their church leaders. It's more than 'quite' alarming the amount of ignorance there is within Christianity. And, if this has in any way contributed to any of the suicides of (generally) young gay males then it's downright dangerous! Worse still, few Christians seem interested in correcting this situation.

daughterofthefaith
Student
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

Post #153

Post by daughterofthefaith »

[Replying to KCKID]

You say that there is no archaeological evidence that Sodom and Gomorrah even existed in the first place - perhaps this is because when God does something he does it thoroughly! Sodom and Gomorrah had been a place of much wickedness including homosexuality, and so when God destroyed he destroyed it fully!!! Not one trace of it left, so that it could never be built up again! AND that the story of the angels and Lot is not a myth! To say that is to be God a liar and God spoke through John to say that when we call God a liar His word is not in us! So you accused me of telling lies, perhaps you should think on how you have just implied that the Creator, Saviour and Judge of the world is a liar.
Christian fundamentalists believe: "the inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ." So yes you could say that i am a christian fundamentalist. It seems to me that to be one you have to believe the Bible basically which is truth "Thy word is truth" so if i believe the Bible how can I be letting the 'truth' get in my way??
I agree that I don't know the Bible as I aught, but then who does, it is only when I get to heaven my knowledge will be perfected. But i have read it cover to cover, my grandfather is a minister and many other relatives are, I have a great Christian heritage and grew up on the Bible. You however, would say you know but you proceed to call certain parts of it a myth?? and you say it doesn't denounce homosexuality? perhaps then you don't know the Bible that well either.
Finally, both Jude and Paul and every other penman of the Bible wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, so what we read in the Bible from beginning to end is all Christ's words, so the references I have put in my previous post are God-breathed!

What a surprise people will get when Christ returns and on Judgement Day denounces homosexuality as an abomination, he will condemn it just as he will condemn sins like murder, swearing, kidnapping and common sins like lying and stealing.Jude 1v15,17,18. [/quote]

Hatuey
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1377
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:52 pm

Re: Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

Post #154

Post by Hatuey »

daughterofthefaith wrote: What a surprise people will get when Christ returns and on Judgement Day denounces homosexuality as an abomination, he will condemn it just as he will condemn sins like murder, swearing, kidnapping and common sins like lying and stealing.Jude 1v15,17,18.
[/quote]


Makes you wonder why Christians are so hung up on homosexuality when there's so many of their brethren lying and getting divorces and swearing. (Remember, Jesus saw no difference between anger and murder, so...) When Christians are as hard on divorce and lying among their own as they are on homosexuality, then they'll not be so hypocritical as they are, now.

User avatar
McCulloch
Site Supporter
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

Post #155

Post by McCulloch »

daughterofthefaith wrote:You say that there is no archaeological evidence that Sodom and Gomorrah even existed in the first place - perhaps this is because when God does something he does it thoroughly! Sodom and Gomorrah had been a place of much wickedness including homosexuality, and so when God destroyed he destroyed it fully!!! Not one trace of it left, so that it could never be built up again! AND that the story of the angels and Lot is not a myth! To say that is to be God a liar and God spoke through John to say that when we call God a liar His word is not in us! So you accused me of telling lies, perhaps you should think on how you have just implied that the Creator, Saviour and Judge of the world is a liar.
All according to your religion. DaughteroftheFaith seems to be missing the point of this debate thread. We should have freedom of religion. The myths and teachings of your religion should not be the law of the land. For you, God spoke through the Apostle John (and Peter, James and Paul). To others God speaks through nature. And to others God speaks through the Guru Granth Sahib or Qur’�n. And to many, God does not speak at all.
daughterofthefaith wrote:What a surprise people will get when Christ returns and on Judgement Day denounces homosexuality as an abomination, he will condemn it just as he will condemn sins like murder, swearing, kidnapping and common sins like lying and stealing. Jude 1v15,17,18.
Try this exercise. Read what is recorded of Jesus' teachings while on earth focusing on what things he strongly condemns. Make a list. Religious hypocrisy; not feeding the poor and hungry; an unforgiving attitude. Examine yourself and your church group. Are they emphasizing the things that Jesus seemed to believe were important? :-k
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

daughterofthefaith
Student
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:29 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Re: Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

Post #156

Post by daughterofthefaith »

[Replying to McCulloch]

Jesus judged all sins equally. Murder was the same as having anger in your heart and adultery is equal to looking on a woman and lusting after her. He never emphasized one sin over the other. I am not judging homosexuality more than I would any other sin, to me divorce is just as wrong. I can honestly say that my church group as a whole look on sins equally and we only try to uphold the truth of God's word and live by his standards. To me someone getting divorce and politicians passing abortion or gay marriages laws are sad and vexing. God looks down and views all sins as an abomination in his eyes.

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24999
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Re: Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

Post #157

Post by Goat »

daughterofthefaith wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Christianity in crisis?]

If Christians are wrong in denouncing gay marriage why did Christ damn Sodom and Gomorrah and destroy them with fire and brimstone?? Gay marriage otherwise called Sodomy is condemned in the Bible! Any Christian who accepts homosexuality as just an 'alternative lifestyle' or a matter of human rights is wrong! We are told to follow Christ's example and he is anti-gay so, so should we! Christ gave Adam a woman for a wife - not a man!

Leviticus 18;22
Romans 1;27
Jude 1;7

Well, let's look at first Leviticus. The term used is specifically for 'anal sex', and if you read it in cultural context, ti is referring to the male prostitutes that were being used by nearby religions that worshiped other gods from the Jews.

Next, let's look at what the Jews said the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is. It's out book, so we should know.

Let's look at Ezekiel 16:49

49. Behold this was the iniquity of Sodom your sister: pride, abundance of bread, and careless ease were hers and her daughters', and she did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

Sounds to me that the sin of Sodom was not homosexuality, but greed and pride, and lack of charity.


Now, if you read Romans in context, you will see that Paul is talking about pagan practices.. and the 'inflamed with unnatural desires' was the punishment, not a prohibition. Of course, that is the opinion of Paul, not Jesus.

Now, Jude 1:7, when Paul (and I don't know why you think Paul actually takes the same stance as Jesus) talks about the sexual immorality, he uses the term 'heteros' which is not the term for gay sex. Let's look at 1:5 though 1:7.
5 - Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

6 - And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Paul is talking about angels, then 'strange flesh', using the term we get the word 'heterosexual from'. Sounds like he is talking about sex with angels.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

KCKID
Guru
Posts: 1535
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:29 pm
Location: Townsville, Australia

Re: Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

Post #158

Post by KCKID »

daughterofthefaith wrote: [Replying to KCKID]

You say that there is no archaeological evidence that Sodom and Gomorrah even existed in the first place - perhaps this is because when God does something he does it thoroughly!
Perhaps he does. Thoroughly wiping away proof of existence ...pretty convenient though, isn't it? The story of Sodom and Gomorrah even reads like a fable or a myth. I mean, do you/we truly believe that Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt? Even if that were true what kind of a monster God would do such a thing to a mere mortal just for having looked back at what was going on? It's worrying to me that those such as yourself allow a book to SO control your thoughts that its tales of the killing of others to appease some sadistic God appears to be fine with you.
daughterofthefaith wrote:Sodom and Gomorrah had been a place of much wickedness including homosexuality,
Could be ...but where, specifically, does the story of Sodom and Gomorrah say anything about homosexuality? Answer: it doesn't. The story talks about the attempted rape of angels ...a method of intimidation for strangers as has been mentioned previously. But NOTHING about homosexuality! You are among the millions that have been duped by your church leaders into believing this. It's become such a part of your psyche that it quite probably offends you that someone is shaking that set belief. I'm not defending homosexuality or heterosexuality here. Who people are attracted to and are perhaps intimate with is none of my business. I don't care. I'm simply attempting to question, and to correct if need be, long held Christian fables.
daughterofthefaith wrote:and so when God destroyed he destroyed it fully!!! Not one trace of it left, so that it could never be built up again! AND that the story of the angels and Lot is not a myth!
You need to prove this. Until you do these are just words from a book and need to be challenged.
daughterofthefaith wrote:To say that is to be God a liar and God spoke through John to say that when we call God a liar His word is not in us! So you accused me of telling lies, perhaps you should think on how you have just implied that the Creator, Saviour and Judge of the world is a liar.
That was rather 'Christian Fundamentalist' of you. When one questions or debunks scripture your first reaction is to bristle and to accuse them of calling God a liar. When Jesus spoke to His disciples he used parables or illustrations to get His message across. They were not true. They were stories. Was Jesus a liar? According to your line of thinking He must have been.
daughterofthefaith wrote:Christian fundamentalists believe: "the inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ." So yes you could say that i am a christian fundamentalist.
The above are just words that attempt to describe a belief system. At the end of the day they have little to do with how a person interacts with another. Do you realize that Christian Fundamentalism has probably been a major cause behind the suicides of many a young man simply because they were gay? To be constantly told that they are 'abominations' and deserve to die, to have parents that disown them because of some cruel ancient texts ...fundamentalism is the real abomination here. Christian Fundamentals cannot express a love message (remember Jesus?) because they are so caught up in their own self-righteousness and the judgement and condemnation of others.
daughterofthefaith wrote:It seems to me that to be one you have to believe the Bible basically which is truth "Thy word is truth" so if i believe the Bible how can I be letting the 'truth' get in my way??
"Thy word is truth." Isn't this just print from a book? Why would you make more of this? As long as one preaches a message that is intended to demean another fellow human being it surely CANNOT be the truth according to Jesus Christ! Preaching a hateful message CANNOT benefit humanity. Love can and does. Jesus couldn't stand fundamentalists as we read in the scriptures. And it's Christ that CHRISTianity is named after.
daughterofthefaith wrote:I agree that I don't know the Bible as I aught, but then who does, it is only when I get to heaven my knowledge will be perfected.
You're right that few, if any, know their Bible as well as they might. And, that's okay. One's 'Christianity' should not be dependent on their knowledge of the Bible. I've been receiving 'new light' almost on a daily basis for the past several years. Prior to that I had basically been brainwashed into the beliefs of my particular denomination. I don't mean that in a sinister way but the SDA Church, while pretty well doctrinally sound in its tenets, believes that it alone is the true 'remnant' Church. Why? Because it keeps the commandments of God (including the 4th - the Sabbath command), has the Spirit of Prophesy, and holds to the testimony of Jesus Christ. Like many mainline denominations, however, its doctrines seem to over-ride the simple message of Jesus ...do unto others as you would have them do unto you. As always, it's 'the message' that is under question and is not to imply that Christians per se are bad people.
daughterofthefaith wrote:But i have read it cover to cover,
This means little to nothing if you haven't comprehended what you've read. One does not need to read the Bible from cover to cover to be an effective Christian.
daughterofthefaith wrote:my grandfather is a minister and many other relatives are, I have a great Christian heritage and grew up on the Bible.
So what? This means nothing to me. Furthermore, "growing up on the Bible" can be a great detriment as long as it is used to demean and dehumanize another human being.
daughterofthefaith wrote:You however, would say you know but you proceed to call certain parts of it a myth??
By no means do I know everything there is to know about the Bible and I don't profess to. I do, however, attempt to apply reason to what the Bible has to say. The Bible is FULL of myths and allegories and it WAS written by men and not God. That you will no doubt claim that these men were 'inspired' by God does not necessarily make it so. But, even if these men were inspired by God, the Bible is STILL full of allegories and myths. It hardly matters that you don't like that.

By the way, why do you take it so personally when someone questions either the Bible or a popular interpretation of the Bible?

daughterofthefaith wrote:and you say it doesn't denounce homosexuality? perhaps then you don't know the Bible that well either.
Well, since "homosexuality" is a relatively modern term it was not found in the original texts of scripture at all. You didn't know that, did you? Try finding that word in the KJV ...it ain't there! It's only in the more recent translations of the Bible that the authors have included that word. And, there is reason to believe that 'homosexual' is a misleading term wherever it's used. It is not used as a description of one's sexuality (as it should) but as a derogatory term. This is wrong, wrong, wrong! And, contrary to popular belief, references to male (NEVER FEMALE!) homosexuality are found ONLY in 5 or 6 places in the ENTIRE BIBLE! And, in all instances where such references are made they are relevant to temple prostitutes (as I mentioned in my previous post) and idolatry. They DO NOT refer to 'Adam and Steve' who share a house down the road! 'Adam and Steve', however, are those to whom most Christians are targeting whenever they refer to these texts. And, again, they don't use the term 'homosexual' to describe a sexual orientation but as a derogatory term!! The truth is that many millions of Christians have not got a clue what their Bible says. Most never touch a Bible and they CERTAINLY don't apply an exegesis approach to the texts that they might read. Most get their information from their leaders who they trust implicitly. I realize that Jesus refers to his followers as a flock of sheep, but do we need to take this so literally? I mean, really . . .?
daughterofthefaith wrote:Finally, both Jude and Paul and every other penman of the Bible wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, so what we read in the Bible from beginning to end is all Christ's words, so the references I have put in my previous post are God-breathed!
This is a debate forum. You need to provide evidence that this is so. Otherwise it's just your word alone. I realize that this is probably what you've been taught from day one but merely stating it does not make it so. Moreover, if all scripture is God-breathed and you are obedient to scripture then should you not be executing Sabbath abrogators? disobedient children? non-virgin women? etc. etc.? You're critical of me for claiming the Bible to be full of myths ...yet, where do YOU stand on these barbaric commands of the Bible that you state are God-breathed and that we should be obedient to?

Note: One cannot remain a Christian Fundamentalist for too long before they shoot themselves in the foot!

daughterofthefaith wrote:What a surprise people will get when Christ returns and on Judgement Day denounces homosexuality as an abomination, he will condemn it just as he will condemn sins like murder, swearing, kidnapping and common sins like lying and stealing.Jude 1v15,17,18.
There is no love for one's fellow human being in the Christian Fundamentalist message. It's all about judgement and condemnation. Sin, sin, sin is their main catch-cry! They appear to take fiendish delight in the very thought of countless millions writhing on a bed of hot coals in eternal torment. It's sickening, to say the least.

99percentatheism
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3083
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:49 am

Re: Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

Post #159

Post by 99percentatheism »

McCulloch
daughterofthefaith wrote:You say that there is no archaeological evidence that Sodom and Gomorrah even existed in the first place - perhaps this is because when God does something he does it thoroughly! Sodom and Gomorrah had been a place of much wickedness including homosexuality, and so when God destroyed he destroyed it fully!!! Not one trace of it left, so that it could never be built up again! AND that the story of the angels and Lot is not a myth! To say that is to be God a liar and God spoke through John to say that when we call God a liar His word is not in us! So you accused me of telling lies, perhaps you should think on how you have just implied that the Creator, Saviour and Judge of the world is a liar.
All according to your religion. DaughteroftheFaith seems to be missing the point of this debate thread. We should have freedom of religion. The myths and teachings of your religion should not be the law of the land. For you, God spoke through the Apostle John (and Peter, James and Paul). To others God speaks through nature. And to others God speaks through the Guru Granth Sahib or Qur’�n. And to many, God does not speak at all.
So all Christians that will not submit to secular and liberal and progressive mythology that genders are not important to Christian life, are the Christians doing what is right. They are the Christians doing as Jesus taught. As we will see below.
daughterofthefaith wrote:What a surprise people will get when Christ returns and on Judgement Day denounces homosexuality as an abomination, he will condemn it just as he will condemn sins like murder, swearing, kidnapping and common sins like lying and stealing. Jude 1v15,17,18.
Try this exercise. Read what is recorded of Jesus' teachings while on earth focusing on what things he strongly condemns. Make a list. Religious hypocrisy; not feeding the poor and hungry; an unforgiving attitude. Examine yourself and your church group. Are they emphasizing the things that Jesus seemed to believe were important? :-k
Done, done and done.

Now let's look at how Jesus reaffirmed marriage:

Man and woman/husband and wife.

Once again, the Christians that hold firmly to this truth are the honest ones.

In fact, Jesus never said a positive word about same gender sex acts or same gender sexuality. Not one word. Another fact, the Bible that Jesus preached from ONLY had words that strongly condemned it.

User avatar
McCulloch
Site Supporter
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Same sex marriage is not a church issue.

Post #160

Post by McCulloch »

99percentatheism wrote:So all Christians that will not submit to secular and liberal and progressive mythology that genders are not important to Christian life, are the Christians doing what is right. They are the Christians doing as Jesus taught.
As far as I am concerned, Christians are free to submit to whatever gender roles and rules that work for them. However, Christians have no right in a country where there is a separation of church and state and a guarantee of freedom of religion to impose their restrictions on the rest of us.
99percentatheism wrote:Now let's look at how Jesus reaffirmed marriage:
Let's not. The teachings of Jesus only apply to those who claim to be his followers. The churches of Jesus have no business meddling on the lives of those of us who make no claims of being his followers.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

Post Reply