This weekend's tornadoes, God's cleansing or just weather

[salvation2011]

Some 240 tornadoes touched down over 3 days, 45 people were killed, homes destroyed etc. If you havent seen the news, it was a huge event we typically see 100 tornadoes in the month of April... the whole month.

Anyway, the debate topic:

If God creates all things, and there are numerous accounts of weather as part of His Glory/cleansing/wrath (from the prophets and in the New Testament), then are the weather events brought by God? (Please if you are of a religion that follows another book, chime in if your Book has anything in it).

Or, are they simply caused by evolutionary changes effecting the earth's atmosphere?

[connermt]

Being an aerospace engineering PhD student, I have to say my understanding of fluid systems (such as multiple weather phenomena) is probably one of the better ones here.

And on that note...no, it's not cleansing. It's simply a upward air flow meeting a high-speed wind system creating a local low, thus a cyclic flow. So unless you want to begin claiming that a god's actions are predictable (like most tornadoes are), then no.

So, if I can explain it, Adonai had nothing to do with it? Last time I checked we were still working on reliable predictor of tornadoes. We have gotten to the point that we can determine the factors that make one possible. However, is there a way to get an accurate prediction before the funnel cloud forms? By the way, unless you missed it, Salvation 2011 was saying that the actions of Adonai are predictable. It just happens to be on a need to know basis. It appears for me Adonai determined that I did not need to know.

The question for those who were on the need to know list is want was the message and when did you receive it?

Just like saying since we can't explain it, then Adonai had everything to do with it, likely no.

[bluethread]

So, if I can explain it, Adonai had nothing to do with it? Last time I checked we were still working on reliable predictor of tornadoes. We have gotten to the point that we can determine the factors that make one possible. However, is there a way to get an accurate prediction before the funnel cloud forms? By the way, unless you missed it, Salvation 2011 was saying that the actions of Adonai are predictable. It just happens to be on a need to know basis. It appears for me Adonai determined that I did not need to know.

The question for those who were on the need to know list is want was the message and when did you receive it?

Just like saying since we can't explain it, then Adonai had everything to do with it, likely no.[/quote]

I don't say that, nor have I seen anyone on this thread make that argument. Ateists often say that such distruction proves that Adonai is not good. One can not have it both ways.

[connermt]

So, if I can explain it, Adonai had nothing to do with it? Last time I checked we were still working on reliable predictor of tornadoes. We have gotten to the point that we can determine the factors that make one possible. However, is there a way to get an accurate prediction before the funnel cloud forms? By the way, unless you missed it, Salvation 2011 was saying that the actions of Adonai are predictable. It just happens to be on a need to know basis. It appears for me Adonai determined that I did not need to know.

The question for those who were on the need to know list is want was the message and when did you receive it?

Just like saying since we can't explain it, then Adonai had everything to do with it, likely no.

I don't say that, nor have I seen anyone on this thread make that argument. Ateists often say that such distruction proves that Adonai is not good. One can not have it both ways.[/quote]
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You do understand that I didn't say you, or anyone in this thread, said that, yes?
I was simply making a point that it can be looked at both ways.

[Choir Loft]

Some 240 tornadoes touched down over 3 days, 45 people were killed, homes destroyed etc. If you havent seen the news, it was a huge event we typically see 100 tornadoes in the month of April... the whole month.

Anyway, the debate topic:

If God creates all things, and there are numerous accounts of weather as part of His Glory/cleansing/wrath (from the prophets and in the New Testament), then are the weather events brought by God? (Please if you are of a religion that follows another book, chime in if your Book has anything in it).

Or, are they simply caused by evolutionary changes effecting the earth's atmosphere?

The question really seems to ask whether the killer tornado was divine judgment.

It wasn't.

The Bible provides a template for understanding what is and what is not the result of divine judgment.

WHAT IS NOT DIVINE JUDGMENT
Some things are simply tragic accidents as in Luke 13:4 when a tower collapsed, killing eighteen men. People asked Jesus if that tragedy was some sort of punishment from God. He said it wasn't. We can assume from this as well as the political executions alluded to earlier in the chapter that there are things going on in the world independent of divine design. BTW Jesus said the political thing wasn't from God either.

God is a player in the theater of life, but not the only one present. Man and the elements play a part as well.

WHAT IS DIVINE JUDGMENT
The Bible gives a template for examination of divine judgment and the revelations to man that preceed it. In both old and new sections, the Bible shows by example that God will give warning by means of prophets and preachers prior to an act of judgment. These warnings often preceed the act by years and by decades. Sometimes generations pass while warnings are given.

When judgment falls, everything changes.

The Bible says that God desires a certain behavior and that if said behavior isn't forthcoming by the hand of man, HE will exact a change personally. Such changes are always unpleasant and destructive.

On rare occasions, God uses the elements to exact judgment as in Noah's flood or in the ruination of Egypt in Moses' day. Most of the time, though, God uses other men as in the invading armies that carried away Israel and Judea.

Using the Biblical template then, we see that there was no long warning prior to this past weekend's disaster in Missouri, or in the tsunami that crippled Japan.

It was just weather.

How many times is God referenced as coming in the clouds, or as a cloud? HUndreds? Although, Im not a Christian, I do also read the NT and Revelation, and I will say that it is said in the bible that the angels reap from the heavens. We call "up there" "the heavens," the tornadoes could be the reaping referred to in Rev as the vine is ripe. The time of the Gentiles is talked about in the bible as well, and it does not last forever (unless you are reaped and used in His purpose described in the bible), and the purpose is quite clear.

No one will like that theory though, especially since its coming from little old me. BUT, you cannot discredit the cloud reference from the bible, not one bit.

Divine judgment, by definition, is an intervention by the Almighty into human life or culture.

God never acts without identifying Himself in some way with the act. The Bible says that He is jealous of His name, which is to say He's very very concerned that everyone involved knows His deeds as well as His moral motivations.

As stated earlier, the spiritual identification usually takes the form of warnings prior to the divine act. These warnings are very specific and are repeated incessantly. Warnings stop only when the behavior of man changes in a positive way (repentance) or when God acts in judgment.

References to God in the clouds are several, not hundreds. References to God acting in the here and now are thousands. One may see a cloud formation that looks like something heavenly, but isn't legitimate unless linked to a spoken or written revelation.

This is the benchmark test for plausibility of divine revelation, by the way. If a perception either of clouds or words or spiritual 'second sight' isn't linked to scripture, then the incident is not legitimate.

Returning to divine judgment, there are lots of folks who are guilt mongers. Some people eat guilt the way others eat pizza or ice cream. They love it. Some people like to dish it out. My mother in law was like that - a real guilt monger. If you will accept the allusion, guilt is like a dark cloud. It oppresses and depresses - it serves only its own ends, which are to make the sufferer miserable. Divine judgment is meant to change things permanently. Warnings of divine judgment are not meant to impress guilt. They are meant to inspire change in personal actions and in cultural directions.

Whether one believes that God causes judgments to happen on the earth or not is a personal thing. However, the reader ought to be aware of the difference between holy warnings, meant to reform actions, and guilt trips, meant to cause the lordship of one person over another by means of perverted emotional depression. One is a legitimate inspiration for positive change while the other is a ploy for control freaks.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[NVIIIX1]

Some 240 tornadoes touched down over 3 days, 45 people were killed, homes destroyed etc. If you havent seen the news, it was a huge event we typically see 100 tornadoes in the month of April... the whole month.

Anyway, the debate topic:

If God creates all things, and there are numerous accounts of weather as part of His Glory/cleansing/wrath (from the prophets and in the New Testament), then are the weather events brought by God? (Please if you are of a religion that follows another book, chime in if your Book has anything in it).

Or, are they simply caused by evolutionary changes effecting the earth's atmosphere?

As a Christian I believe that God is sovereign and even the weather is within his control. Are there any Christians who claim to be faithful but yet think God doesn't ordain all weather conditions?

[Nickman]

Some 240 tornadoes touched down over 3 days, 45 people were killed, homes destroyed etc. If you havent seen the news, it was a huge event we typically see 100 tornadoes in the month of April... the whole month.

Anyway, the debate topic:

If God creates all things, and there are numerous accounts of weather as part of His Glory/cleansing/wrath (from the prophets and in the New Testament), then are the weather events brought by God? (Please if you are of a religion that follows another book, chime in if your Book has anything in it).

Or, are they simply caused by evolutionary changes effecting the earth's atmosphere?

We know what causes tornadoes without any need to appeal to divine causes. Natural disasters affect the religious and non-religious without any regards to affiliation. I see no need to assume that this 3 day event of natural disasters has anything to do with divine retribution. Now if you were to show that all 45 victims were atheists or something other than followers of a god's and no christians were harmed then you may have a slight point but im sure that we cannot find anything that would tie these events to the divine.