Do these athiests have a point?

[officer2002]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/unconst ... believers/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/10/24/at ... latestnews

I have never heard of a law suit like this before.

[tokutter]

Atheists have a point only to the whacky world of secularism.

Secularism is the principle of separation of government institutions, and the persons mandated to represent the State, from religious institutions and religious dignitaries. In the United States state secularism serves to protect religion and the religious from governmental interference and to protect executive, legislative and judicial governmental bodies from religious interference. There is nothing whacky about secularism nor is it the province solely of atheists.

"Protect religion"?

Your opinion is duly noted.

Here's mine:

Maybe once upon a time. Now "secularism" and secular forces are synonymous with atheistic, materialism and humanism. The word and influence is now used to attack religion and the religious. It sure seems that the word and actions of "Secularists" and secularism, mean expulsion of religion and the religious from having influence on laws and pop culture. It is now an action more akin to bigotry and hate towards Christians more often than not. It looks like the atheistic and humanist fires of the French Revolution are being re-stoked.

How bout we just suspend reality and take what you just said as truth......whats your problem??????...isn't the persecution of christinaity/christians one of those end time prophecies ya'll love so much........rejoice brother.....the end is near...YIIIIIIPPPPPPPPEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

[McCulloch]

[Replying to post 19 by 99percentatheism]

Attack religion? Not at all! We secularists will defend you right to practice your religion so long as you do not unduly affect others' right to practice their religion (or lack of religion). We defend religion from being under the influence of our governments. We challenge and debate the claims being made by religions, particularly those religions which presume to dictate behavioural choices to those of us who don't subscribe. We seek to remove religious displays and ritual from the public sphere to prevent the appearance of established religion and to eliminate the sense of alienation and exclusion experienced when religious rituals are made public.

[Choir Loft]

There aren't any Islamic displays in public for the simple reason that icons or representations of Mohammad or any other Islamic figure or aspect of the faith is forbidden by Sharia law.

The only public display of the religion are quotations of scripture or the statement of faith, called the shahada.

The shahada reads as follows; "there is no god but Allah and Mohammad is his prophet".

The shahada, written in arabic, appears on prominent flags and banners. The flag of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, for example, is a green field with the text of the shahada on top and sword of Mohammad on the bottom.

The Muslim 'flag of religion', also called the flag of jihad (or struggle), is a black flag with the shahada text written in white, sometimes in yellow. The flag may also bear the graphic of a sword or automatic rifle. The flag of religion has also been adopted by the members of Al Qaeda, the international terrorist organization.

Next time you see an Islamic parade, look for the flag of religion in the background. It is always there prominently and proudly displayed on the streets of America - thumbing its nose at us all.

Are you just being informative, or are you suggesting these examples are comparible to the kind of stuff atheists are suing the government for?

Atheist litigation and political pressure for ordinances are miniscule compared to what Muslims have in mind for America (and what has been reported already).

And yes, I am trying to be informative at the same time.

If Islamic law really gets its hands on the legal system of the United States, the atheist will be the first to suffer the worst. The gay crowd will be next.

A non-believer in an Islamic state is called a dhimmi. Dhimmitude requires the jizya to be paid (head tax - to allow your head to remain attached to your shoulders). Jews and Christians are considered to be "people of the book", meaning the Bible and remote (very remote) kin to the Muslim. They are treated with a teaspoon more respect than other non-believers. Hindu folk, for example, are treated very badly. The Native American could suffer another wave of persecution.

And the atheist would suffer worst of all, for he holds no affection or respect for God in his heart.

To repeat the leading question of this thread, "do atheists have a point" is to debate philosophical and religious differences in a Christian and Jewish culture that allows it.

MY POINT is that if Islamic law becomes the rule in America, atheists won't have a point to stand on (or a head to think with). Islam is the future.

Throughout American history, the atheist has had the clearest mind with regard to politics while the Christian has been clearest on religion and morality. If these two groups don't find common ground to deal with the insinuation of Islamic custom - NEITHER ONE WILL HAVE A POINT TO MAKE.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 22 by Choir Loft]

Your presenting a lesser of two evils scenario. i.e. here take my oppressive legislation because that guy over there has even more oppressive stuff coming in the near future.

I reject both i'll pick the 3rd option and have a secular government like we mostly already do.

First I am skeptical that ISLAM! *queue the dramatic music* will ever gain a significant traction in this country

Two you want no separation of church and state for Christian stuff but anything else requires maximum separation! These fears could all be put to rest by promoting a neutral secular government with firm separation of church and state.
The fast growing segment in America is not Islam it's non-belief so no I am not worried in the least about Islamic takeover.

Perhaps your fears stem from the fact as the religious pie gets smaller the competition for converts get tougher and your afraid that Islam will win. This fear shows a lack of faith, I simply point to Romans 13. God appoints all leaders maybe you should trust him and face your fears

[Choir Loft]

[Replying to post 22 by Choir Loft]

Your presenting a lesser of two evils scenario. i.e. here take my oppressive legislation because that guy over there has even more oppressive stuff coming in the near future.

I reject both i'll pick the 3rd option and have a secular government like we mostly already do.

First I am skeptical that ISLAM! *queue the dramatic music* will ever gain a significant traction in this country

Two you want no separation of church and state for Christian stuff but anything else requires maximum separation! These fears could all be put to rest by promoting a neutral secular government with firm separation of church and state.
The fast growing segment in America is not Islam it's non-belief so no I am not worried in the least about Islamic takeover.

Perhaps your fears stem from the fact as the religious pie gets smaller the competition for converts get tougher and your afraid that Islam will win. This fear shows a lack of faith, I simply point to Romans 13. God appoints all leaders maybe you should trust him and face your fears

Your expression of political naivete is juvenile, not to mention your obvious lack of education regarding Islamic intent toward America and its progress to date.

Last point first is that in nearly every medium and large city in America there is now a pronounced presence of Muslims. This was not the case pre-911. You're probably far too young to remember what the culture was like then. The Muslim population is growing exponentially. If statistics are to be given any credence, the growth of Islam world wide has been greater than at any other time in history. It's so rapid in fact that even Muslim leadership is amazed.

When you have a significant population of any type you'll have an effect upon civic laws and general culture. They are here in America and their influence MUST be recognized and dealt with. Imagining that God doesn't exist or holding forth on bigoted ideas contrary to the tenants of religion - ANY - religion will not resolve the problem or make it go away. Islam IS the future. Deal with it.

That is the purpose of my post. How do live with the issues of religious impact.

Your first point is not much more than disorganized blather opposing the influence of Christians in particular and a rather head-in-the-sand (or stuck up dark areas of the body) approach to Islam. Ignoring either will NOT force their influence to retreat. In fact, you're mindless religious hatred tends to increase rather than decrease their dedication to action. (You probably have no idea what I mean here. Thank you, by the way.)

America is a land of diverse culture and beliefs - or anti-religons if you're an aggressive atheist. One of the tendencies of ANY group of people is their predisposition to mingle religion/philosophy with politics. That's the way it is. Deal with it.

Christians, for example, worship the flag instead of the cross (bet you didn't know that) and regard Ronald Reagan as a deity greater than most Biblical figures. They enshrine their rather shriveled notions of who he was and what he did in a sort of spiritual mausoleum of lies and fantasy. Muslims worship their prophet, although you will not technically be able to get them to admit to it. Self-important atheists worship themselves and admire their own cleverness despite the fact its full of logical holes.

But when you take a step back from the political precipice, those that have the clearest understanding of American politics are theists like Thomas Jefferson and intellectual atheists/secularists (who have more smarts than conceit).

Religion is a great part of the American culture. It cannot be removed, ignored or displaced in any way shape or fashion by negative rhetoric, rants and bigotry. We are HERE and have a right to express our influence and beliefs in terms of political action. Deal with it. Grow up a little.

What I espouse is a link between the two camps - the sacred religious and the profane atheist. If we do not find common ground to work on, the political system as we have known it WILL CONTINUE TO COLLAPSE.

And if present financial indicators can be believed, the economy will implode sooner rather than later.

And when that happens political action will appear in riotous mobs, at the end of a gun or the edge of a knife rather than in a voting booth. Try to remember your place in life dear atheist - there are far more armed Christians and Muslims than atheists. Deal with it. Grow up a little. And try to work with people to make a better country than trying to alienate the same folks who may be able to work with you to resolve our problems.

It's time to stop acting like a child. The playground is full of land mines.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[DanieltheDragon]

I[Replying to post 24 by Choir Loft]

Relax all I was suggesting is a strong separation of church and state is something we both should agree on. Religions indeed can be good and many people still need it. I don't advocate atheism merely a religiously neutral government so no religion can oppress another. You have every right to believe what you want and for the most part I am indifferent towards it, unless one uses their beliefs to oppress another.

Would a strong separation of church and state infringe your ability to believe in god?

Would a strong separation of church and state allow for sharia law?

if so explain.

The Muslim population is growing exponentially

provide evidence

here is mine

1990 1.1 billion Muslims globally

2013 1.5 billion

this is hardly exponential in fact when global growth rate is factored in it accounts for nearly all growth in fact Islamic nations generally saw 2-3% increase per annum this suggests a decrease in conversion.

Religious affiliation in America has dropped from 95% to 85% some surveys peg it as low as 70% in 10 years ~. Far out pacing Islamic growth. It appears on a surface level your fear of Islamic take over is unfounded.


1910 / 2010 / growth rate

Atheism 243,000 / 136,652,000 / 6.54

Islam 221,749,000 / 1,553,773,000 / 1.97

Agnosticism 3,369,000 / 676,944,000 / 5.45


past doesn't predicate future but it appears the religious pie is shrinking

[Tiberius47]

Usually lawsuits by atheists are because of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, "In God We Trust" on money, public prayer, Christian displays on the lawn of city hall(I have never heard about a lawsuit over Muslim prayers, displays or parades. Please inform me of any that have happened if you know of any.), or signs at high school football games. In each of those cases the atheists are not effected. In each of these cases one religion is not supported. To the contrary the religion of atheism is the only one that has no belief in any god and thus is established when they win those lawsuits.

Well, the US government doesn't usually produce any Muslim prayers, only Christian ones. The atheists are just fighting to keep religion out of the US Government, as the founding fathers intended.

[Jolly_Penguin]

Choir Loft,

You propose that Atheists/Agnostics/Humanists and Christians should stand together to ward off Islam. I agree wholeheartedly. We need to all work to keep the wall of separation of church and state strong.

Keeping the wall of separation of church and state strong is exactly what will shield us from what you fear about Islam.

And Christians showing that they are able to keep their religion strong by its own merit, gaining converts due to its tenets and truths, instead of forcing it through the state on non-believers, will be a great example to Muslims.

Break down the wall, and you are just opening a path for the Muslims sharia you fear.

[wiploc]

I have never heard of a law suit like this before.
Do these athiests have a point?

I've never heard of this ether, but the plaintiffs are obviously in the right.

If the law said that Democrats could be married by their fellow Democrats, but Republicans can only be married by justices of the peace or by Democrats, the law would be obviously wrong.