What Gives Us The Right To Make The Rules?

[Tommy63]

To start off before I get pounded with ignorance arrows, I am not a professor or doctor. I have been a Christian since 2001, but have become sadden with the things I see going on in the church today. So much that I do not attend anymore. I still believe in God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but I feel like a hypocrite when I'm in church. Theatrics is the only word that seems to fit. I see big payrolls that seem to go up when the members go up, I see applause after someone performs, I see tithes not going to help the surrounding communities. I see events taking place at the church that have nothing to do with christianity. So my question is what gives us the right to make up new rules that are not found in the bible? To me the answers to what we are to be doing are all there in the bible, we are just choosing to ignore them so we can stay in our comfort zone. What's your thoughts on this? If you are a Christian and you think I'm wrong on this matter please respond to these questions with scripture to show me different?

[sheilds up captian]

[Goat]

To start off before I get pounded with ignorance arrows, I am not a professor or doctor. I have been a Christian since 2001, but have become sadden with the things I see going on in the church today. So much that I do not attend anymore. I still believe in God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but I feel like a hypocrite when I'm in church. Theatrics is the only word that seems to fit. I see big payrolls that seem to go up when the members go up, I see applause after someone performs, I see tithes not going to help the surrounding communities. I see events taking place at the church that have nothing to do with christianity. So my question is what gives us the right to make up new rules that are not found in the bible? To me the answers to what we are to be doing are all there in the bible, we are just choosing to ignore them so we can stay in our comfort zone. What's your thoughts on this? If you are a Christian and you think I'm wrong on this matter please respond to these questions with scripture to show me different?

[sheilds up captian]

Well, I am not Christian, but I will point out that this is not just 'today' , nor just the Christian church. This has been going on a long long time. The protestent reformation was an attempt to get away from it, because the RCC was corrupt. Before then, huge amounts of money was spent in Pagan temples to make mechanical 'miracles' to happen, powered by air and water. Look at the inventions of Heron of Alexandria. Anytime you get a concentration of power/money, you will get people who are attracted to it, and when faith is involved, con men will use the honest faith of other people for self advancement. That's nothing new, and that's not even exclusively Christian.

[Tommy63]

Thanks for the reply Goat. When power is given to man it causing him to abuse it. It's sad to see so many people not opening their eyes to what they are doing, or maybe it's just the fear of the outcome if they say something. In the bible Peter feared the crowd and denied knowing Christ. I spoke of all these matters to the church I was attending and how I felt because it didn't seem right. In return I was outcasted. I say this because no one, including the pastor at the church has contacted me in over 2 years now, which to me only proves my point even more. They offered no scripture to show me what we are doing is what God instructed us to do. They use the threshing ox scripture, but that meaning does not say you can take more because more is there. What happen to sacrificing ourselves and picking up our crosses and following Jesus?

[Choir Loft]

To start off before I get pounded with ignorance arrows, I am not a professor or doctor. I have been a Christian since 2001, but have become sadden with the things I see going on in the church today. So much that I do not attend anymore. I still believe in God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but I feel like a hypocrite when I'm in church. Theatrics is the only word that seems to fit. I see big payrolls that seem to go up when the members go up, I see applause after someone performs, I see tithes not going to help the surrounding communities. I see events taking place at the church that have nothing to do with christianity. So my question is what gives us the right to make up new rules that are not found in the bible? To me the answers to what we are to be doing are all there in the bible, we are just choosing to ignore them so we can stay in our comfort zone. What's your thoughts on this? If you are a Christian and you think I'm wrong on this matter please respond to these questions with scripture to show me different?

[sheilds up captian]

When you begin to decry the current state of Christendom today take a step back and look at the big picture.

Church, inc. is part of the wider sickness that infects our culture. That's the key word or magnifying glass through which we can examine our world. It's the culture.

CULTURE - definition
1.) The quality in a person or society that arises for a concern for what is excellent in arts, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2.) A particular form or stage of civilization.
3.) The behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic or age group; as in the youth culture, the drug culture.

Boil down the words above and you get 'what's important'. What's important in politics? What's important to the military? What's important to the financial cartel that rules America? To the point of this discussion, what's important to Church, Inc.?

I think you've done an excellent job of enumerating the things that are important to the corporate church today.

"It would be easier for the Devil to go to church and cross himself with holy water than for these people to comprehend the ideas which are accepted facts to us today. The parsons will dig their own graves. They will betray their God to us. They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable jobs and incomes. Protestant clergy don't believe in anything except their well-being and office".
- Adolph Hitler

So I think we can all accept that the pure form of religion has been betrayed by the very people who are supposed to guide their flock into the regions of spiritual light. They've betrayed the body of Christ for a few silver coins. Sound familiar? The Bible has an answer for this culture of false religion.

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
- 2 Timothy 3:5

At this point I'd like to point out that there really are groups of Christians that hold to the simple and right CULTURAL values that Christianity espouses, not to mention the greatest value of discipleship to Jesus Christ. Seek them out. Look for them. You may not find them meeting in the great halls of a cathedral, but you will find them indeed.

Meanwhile I suggest you surf over to www.apostacywatch.com and have a look.

All is not lost. Have courage and look. Jesus promises that the seeker will find what he's looking for.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[A Troubled Man]

I feel like a hypocrite when I'm in church. Theatrics is the only word that seems to fit. I see big payrolls that seem to go up when the members go up, I see applause after someone performs, I see tithes not going to help the surrounding communities. I see events taking place at the church that have nothing to do with christianity. So my question is what gives us the right to make up new rules that are not found in the bible?

I ask that question time and again and rarely get a straight answer.

Would it then be fair to say that religions like Christianity have become indoctrination machines? They indoctrinate the youth in order to keep the dough coming in from it's membership, knowing full well that some will continue their entire lives feeding the machine while some may start to understand what's really going on and as you say, start feeling like a hypocrite and stop feeding it.

[Choir Loft]

I feel like a hypocrite when I'm in church. Theatrics is the only word that seems to fit. I see big payrolls that seem to go up when the members go up, I see applause after someone performs, I see tithes not going to help the surrounding communities. I see events taking place at the church that have nothing to do with christianity. So my question is what gives us the right to make up new rules that are not found in the bible?

I ask that question time and again and rarely get a straight answer.

Would it then be fair to say that religions like Christianity have become indoctrination machines? They indoctrinate the youth in order to keep the dough coming in from it's membership, knowing full well that some will continue their entire lives feeding the machine while some may start to understand what's really going on and as you say, start feeling like a hypocrite and stop feeding it.

A straight answer is not heard when the listening is crooked.

Men hear what they want to hear and they do what they want to do. Mostly they justify what they do by what they think they've heard or by what they want to hear.

Of such is the nature of a dead culture and a dying nation. When there is no anchor in truth the culture withers, and when there is no spirit to live the truth a nation dies. Truth is the first casualty of a dying empire.

On the day of His execution, Jesus stood before His judge Pontius Pilate. During a series of questions Jesus said, "everyone who is of the truth hears my voice." Pilate responded in frustration at the circumstances when he uttered the famous words, "what is truth."

Truth is that which conforms to what is.

The dilemma of our modern illuminated culture is that few admit to what IS. When each man lives according to his own lusts and desires, the truth is buried and what IS becomes that which destroys him.

***

The top question here is 'what gives us the right to make up new rules not found in the Bible'.

Perhaps you are new to this forum. You should know that this isn't the only Christian debate site either. On all these sites the questions of how to celebrate our faith and how strict or slack those rules ought to be are subjects of constant examination. Differences in opinion and experience abound, and those who share common views find others who are more or less in agreement. In that way, the disciples of Christ help one another in the great pilgrimage of life.

When a man decides to follow Christ he binds himself to the Truth and the Truth binds Itself to him. Discovering bits of that Truth will often take an entire lifetime and beyond. The caveat to discovering the truth is that a man is obliged to live it whether it's an inconvenience to him or not.

And many would rather play at religion than live it, yet another symptom of a dying civilization.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[bluethread]

To start off before I get pounded with ignorance arrows, I am not a professor or doctor. I have been a Christian since 2001, but have become sadden with the things I see going on in the church today. So much that I do not attend anymore. I still believe in God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but I feel like a hypocrite when I'm in church. Theatrics is the only word that seems to fit. I see big payrolls that seem to go up when the members go up, I see applause after someone performs, I see tithes not going to help the surrounding communities. I see events taking place at the church that have nothing to do with christianity. So my question is what gives us the right to make up new rules that are not found in the bible? To me the answers to what we are to be doing are all there in the bible, we are just choosing to ignore them so we can stay in our comfort zone. What's your thoughts on this? If you are a Christian and you think I'm wrong on this matter please respond to these questions with scripture to show me different?

[sheilds up captian]

As Yeshua said, (Mark 6:11) "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

Presuming you accept Shabbat as one of Adonai's appointed times, I suggest you find someone who will meet with you to read and discuss the Scriptures at that time each week. If you would like I would be willing to start a tread for this purpose until you find someone locally.

P.S. It is Adonai that gives us the right to arrange to meet regularly on Shabbat. As to other things, those rights become clearer as one progresses in one's study.

Leviticus 23:3 KJV
""Six days shall work be done : but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings."

[Divine Insight]

So my question is what gives us the right to make up new rules that are not found in the bible? To me the answers to what we are to be doing are all there in the bible, we are just choosing to ignore them so we can stay in our comfort zone. What's your thoughts on this? If you are a Christian and you think I'm wrong on this matter please respond to these questions with scripture to show me different?

My only suggestion to you would be to quit the church you're currently attending and seek out another church that you can find agreement with.

You're unlikely to change the behavior of your entire church unless you're a truly charismatic activist and seek to go about that very task quite methodically, and even then you may end up doing nothing more than instigating arguments.

So a better approach is to try to just find a church that's more compatible with your own personal views of what "Biblical Behavior" means.

I was once a Christian (only because I was born and raised into the religion). I made a very honest attempt to try to sort though the Bible to try to make a coherent picture. I personally found that to be impossible. I eventually dismissed the whole thing, including the idea that Jesus was the virgin born son of the God of Abraham, etc.

So I couldn't even create a "Christian Church" of my own from scratch that would make any sense to me. The very idea of trying to hold Jesus up as "The Christ" is an impossible idea, for me.

I still believe in the potentiality of spirituality, an idea of a "God", and an idea of morality. But any religion that I would support would need to be quite abstract on those ideals, and also far removed from anything the ancient Hebrews came up with.

But if you like the Hebrew stories, you just need to find a church that views those stories in a similar way that you do.

Good luck with that.

[McCulloch]

If you still believe the message of the New Testament, then you will not forsake the assembling of Christians. One thing that you should learn is that real believers do not go to church. The true Christians are the church. If you are spiritually part of the body of Christ, then you cannot help but want to be together with the other members of that body.

There are groups of Christians who do humbly seek to serve. You need to find one of them. Good luck.

[Valarian]

I feel like a hypocrite when I'm in church. Theatrics is the only word that seems to fit. I see big payrolls that seem to go up when the members go up, I see applause after someone performs, I see tithes not going to help the surrounding communities. I see events taking place at the church that have nothing to do with christianity. So my question is what gives us the right to make up new rules that are not found in the bible?

Would it then be fair to say that religions like Christianity have become indoctrination machines? They indoctrinate the youth in order to keep the dough coming in from it's membership, knowing full well that some will continue their entire lives feeding the machine while some may start to understand what's really going on and as you say, start feeling like a hypocrite and stop feeding it.

I'm lucky in that I've found a church where the members actually practice what they preach. It took going to a Unitarian church to find it, showing your faith through action rather than just talking about it.

The minister of a church should be given enough to live a comfortable, but not a lavish, lifestyle. Like you, I'm disgusted at the lavish lifestyles of celebrity preachers. If the tithes you pay to your church aren't going to help the local community, find charities or support groups that do help. Keep a financial record of this support and when your minister asks for the tithe, show them the record. There's nothing to say it has to go to the church, it's a personal charitable duty. Events taking place in the church building could be okay as it raises the profile of the church locally and helps build community beyond the church membership. They should be in keeping with Christian ethics though. Bingo, for example, should be out as it's gambling.

Indoctrination is sad, but true. Especially in the more fundamentalist and evangelistic denominations. Also saddening is that this is the type of Christianity that is growing. Liberal Christianity is dying out through decline. The indoctrinating churches gain their converts and either keep them or put people off Christianity altogether. Atheists seem to tar all Christians with the brush of this particular branch, using the particular theologies and doctrines as examples of all Christianity. The rise of militant atheism as a reaction to fundamentalism is ironic, as fundamentalism was itself a reaction to an earlier rise in atheism during the 18th Century.

New rules/doctrines have been made almost since the books of the New Testament were written down. The 2nd Century saw the formulation of the trinity, which got adopted as formal doctrine in the 4th Century. The 4th Century also saw the creation of the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary. The 7th century gave the Immaculate conception of Mary, not formal doctrine until the 19th century. The fundamentalist movement with literalism, inerrancy, young-earth, dominionism, etc. is just the latest set.

It's not right but the only alternative is to accept it, change it or leave that church and try to find one that focuses on social action.