Deadly Combination: ignorance, hate & religion

[Danmark]

Once again the tragic events in Boston April 15, 2013 involve the deadly combination of ignorance, religion and hatred. Once again the religion is Islam and the resources used to fuel the hate came from an Al Qaeda terrorist site. It becomes harder and harder not to blame Islam and religion in general, despite knowing that most Muslims are peace loving.

What triggered this topic is the news from a friend of the older of the two terrorists than he claimed the Bible was a 'cheap copy' of the Qur'an, despite the Qur'an having been written about 500 years after the NT.

Muslims argue vigorously that it is only a misunderstanding of their religion that results in acts of terror and that the Bible also has verses of violence and adherents who terrorize.

The question for debate is how much is ignorance to blame instead of religion?
does Islam play a particularly responsible role in the culture of terrorism?

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 9 by connermt]

I agree, all religions go thru their adolescent, tribal stage. I wonder that Islam is just 600 years behind Christianity, going thru its violent growing pains. Hopefully the small percentage of violent zealots will join the peaceful majority. For that to happen, the peaceful leaders will have to make it clearer that violence will not be tolerated. My recollection is that significant percentages of Muslims have been in sympathy with with some of the violence, seeing it as defending the faith.

[Choir Loft]

Once again the tragic events in Boston April 15, 2013 involve the deadly combination of ignorance, religion and hatred. Once again the religion is Islam and the resources used to fuel the hate came from an Al Qaeda terrorist site. It becomes harder and harder not to blame Islam and religion in general, despite knowing that most Muslims are peace loving.

What triggered this topic is the news from a friend of the older of the two terrorists than he claimed the Bible was a 'cheap copy' of the Qur'an, despite the Qur'an having been written about 500 years after the NT.

Muslims argue vigorously that it is only a misunderstanding of their religion that results in acts of terror and that the Bible also has verses of violence and adherents who terrorize.

The question for debate is how much is ignorance to blame instead of religion?
Is Islam play a particularly responsible role in the culture of terrorism?

I have read the Qur'an from cover to cover, all 114 chapters or surahs as the Saracen calls them. It was a long laborious task, I assure you. The book doesn't read like anything one is used to.

I've also read and studied the Bible, which is the older text by far. You don't have to be a rocket scientist or a theologian to see clearly that the Qur'an is the cheap imitation of the original Talmud.

For those who doubt that Islam is a violent religion, opposed to any and all that are not Muslim, I invite you to read their own scriptural justification for their murderous attitude.

Read Surah 9 The Immunity

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/

Surah 9 is the chapter upon which most of Muslim hostility is based or quoted. Of note is Hadith literature, fatwahs or official religious statements made by Muslim leaders from the past to the present. A fatwah is the equivalent of a Papal Encyclical, more or less.

The above is a link to a Muslim site that will allow text searchs for words, phrases and entire chapters of the Qur'an. Learn things the Muslim does not know and which Christians are unaware.

Read Surah 9 and you will see for yourself what I mean by a confused and incoherent text. The Qur'an reads more like a minefield than a meadow of religious philosophy.

* * *
Violence and acts of war condoned in the pages of the Old Testament were specifically directed and limited by time and place. War was waged upon specific groups of people for a limited period of time. When the war was over, the Bible makes references as to how the peace was to be promoted. Nowhere does the Bible ever state that one must kill anyone who wasn't a Hebrew, Jew or Christian.

As to peace, an odd statement in the OT states that those who live in Israel ought not be charged interest in any loan they take out. Its ok to charge interest to non-Israelites but not to one's own. Now there's an idea I'd like to see in America.

But the Qur'an does sanction murder and so does the Hadith literature. The Qur'an is very adamant about it.

And then there is the Sharia head tax. Called dhimitude, its the second class or low class treatment of non-Muslims living in a Muslim nation. The head tax was required of any unbeliever who lived in an Islamic state so as to keep one's head affixed to one's shoulders. Until recently not all Islamic states required the head tax to be collected and not all treated dhimmis badly. Today, however, things are quite different. Rumors of crucifixions, evictions and mistreatment are coming out of the middle east like a religious tsunami of persecution.

It gets worse.

Atheists like to think that their philosophical neutrality puts them above and beyond the murderous rhetoric. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The Qur'an makes it quite clear that non-believers (non-Muslims) are to be divided into two groups. The first group are the dhimmis. People of 'the book' are allowed to keep their lives provided the head tax is paid. People of the book, by definition, are Jews and Christians.

The other non-believers, ones who reject the idea of the Christian God Jesus or the Jewish God YHWH have no such mercy and are to be dispatched to the eternal flames immediately. The Hindu religion, which is basically pantheism, suffered worst from clashes between expanding Islam and Hinduism.

Finally, the recent invention of Muslimophobia by the Imam of the Islamic Center near Ground Zero in NYC, seeks to obtain sympathy for Islam by lie, by sympathy or by terror, whichever works best. It is said today that death is preferable to persecution.

Persecution by definition is anything that opposes Islam.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Danmark]

Once again the tragic events in Boston April 15, 2013 involve the deadly combination of ignorance, religion and hatred. Once again the religion is Islam and the resources used to fuel the hate came from an Al Qaeda terrorist site. It becomes harder and harder not to blame Islam and religion in general, despite knowing that most Muslims are peace loving.

What triggered this topic is the news from a friend of the older of the two terrorists than he claimed the Bible was a 'cheap copy' of the Qur'an, despite the Qur'an having been written about 500 years after the NT.

Muslims argue vigorously that it is only a misunderstanding of their religion that results in acts of terror and that the Bible also has verses of violence and adherents who terrorize.

The question for debate is how much is ignorance to blame instead of religion?
Is Islam play a particularly responsible role in the culture of terrorism?

I have read the Qur'an from cover to cover, all 114 chapters or surahs as the Saracen calls them. It was a long laborious task, I assure you. The book doesn't read like anything one is used to.

I've also read and studied the Bible, which is the older text by far. You don't have to be a rocket scientist or a theologian to see clearly that the Qur'an is the cheap imitation of the original Talmud.
....

Wanted to send a quick reply just to this section. That was exactly my impression, a very obvious, transparently obvious copy of the Talmud, with an Arab slant. I am mystified that everyone who reads the Talmud or OT first, than attempts to read the Quran would not come to the same conclusion.

[Choir Loft]

Once again the tragic events in Boston April 15, 2013 involve the deadly combination of ignorance, religion and hatred. Once again the religion is Islam and the resources used to fuel the hate came from an Al Qaeda terrorist site. It becomes harder and harder not to blame Islam and religion in general, despite knowing that most Muslims are peace loving.

What triggered this topic is the news from a friend of the older of the two terrorists than he claimed the Bible was a 'cheap copy' of the Qur'an, despite the Qur'an having been written about 500 years after the NT.

Muslims argue vigorously that it is only a misunderstanding of their religion that results in acts of terror and that the Bible also has verses of violence and adherents who terrorize.

The question for debate is how much is ignorance to blame instead of religion?
Is Islam play a particularly responsible role in the culture of terrorism?

I have read the Qur'an from cover to cover, all 114 chapters or surahs as the Saracen calls them. It was a long laborious task, I assure you. The book doesn't read like anything one is used to.

I've also read and studied the Bible, which is the older text by far. You don't have to be a rocket scientist or a theologian to see clearly that the Qur'an is the cheap imitation of the original Talmud.
....

Wanted to send a quick reply just to this section. That was exactly my impression, a very obvious, transparently obvious copy of the Talmud, with an Arab slant. I am mystified that everyone who reads the Talmud or OT first, than attempts to read the Quran would not come to the same conclusion.

I am an employee of a local community college. At our institution we have several Muslim students.

Most recently I raised a couple of simple questions. I already knew the answers, but to test a private theory I engaged four of the Muslim students (1 woman and 3 men).

The question is this; in one of the later surahs, the Qur'an says (I'm paraphrasing the scripture here) that when the apostle of Allah speaks one should listen to him.

I told the Muslims that an apostle in the Bible was a disciple of Christ and founder of the early church. I asked them who the Qur'an was talking about. Was it speaking of a Christian apostle, a Muslim person or Mohammad?

They didn't know. I repeated the question in several forms and they asked where I had read that information. I told them that I read it in the Qur'an.

Two of the Muslim men told me I shouldn't read that book (Qur'an) because it was too confusing.

True story. I kid you not.

BTW the Qur'an was referring to Mohammad as the apostle of Allah. Mohammad is also referred to as the prophet of Allah and as the messenger of Allah. The man wears many hats, theologically speaking.

The theory I was really testing was the Muslim knowledge of the Qur'an (the arab word actually means recitations. Mohammad was illiterate you see and memorized the words as he received them from an angel in a cave. He later expressed misgivings to his wife stating that he believed he had been getting his recitations from a demon.). In listening to media commentators, Christians and non-believers about their opinions about Islam - including Muslims themselves - I've detected a lack of knowledge of the Qur'an.

Muslims do not as a rule know the general contents of their own holy book.

They only reiterate what they've been taught by their imam (priest).

So. What are they being taught? They are not being taught well and that's a fact.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS
There is a common story that Mohammad was poisoned by his wife one evening after a dinner speech. It's a Muslim story, but considering what happened to Islam after Mohammad's death, one wonders if other parties instigated the act. Another conspiracy theory? Perhaps, but this one is a Muslim conspiracy.

[cl]

Once again the tragic events in Boston April 15, 2013 involve the deadly combination of ignorance, religion and hatred. Once again the religion is Islam and the resources used to fuel the hate came from an Al Qaeda terrorist site. It becomes harder and harder not to blame Islam and religion in general, despite knowing that most Muslims are peace loving.

What triggered this topic is the news from a friend of the older of the two terrorists than he claimed the Bible was a 'cheap copy' of the Qur'an, despite the Qur'an having been written about 500 years after the NT.

Muslims argue vigorously that it is only a misunderstanding of their religion that results in acts of terror and that the Bible also has verses of violence and adherents who terrorize.

The question for debate is how much is ignorance to blame instead of religion?
Is Islam play a particularly responsible role in the culture of terrorism?

Happy anniversary for Boston.

Anybody notice how that in all the speechifying and testifying and signifying the name of God and quotations from His Word was largely omitted?

Except for Hishonor the Mayor, who quoted from the book of James, all the calls for solidarity were to one's fellow man - or woman as the case may be.

I'm surprised someone didn't trot out a flag and drool all over it in worship. That's usually somewhere on the agenda. Maybe I missed it.....NOT.

[Cain]

Once again the tragic events in Boston April 15, 2013 involve the deadly combination of ignorance, religion and hatred. Once again the religion is Islam and the resources used to fuel the hate came from an Al Qaeda terrorist site. It becomes harder and harder not to blame Islam and religion in general, despite knowing that most Muslims are peace loving.

What triggered this topic is the news from a friend of the older of the two terrorists than he claimed the Bible was a 'cheap copy' of the Qur'an, despite the Qur'an having been written about 500 years after the NT.

Muslims argue vigorously that it is only a misunderstanding of their religion that results in acts of terror and that the Bible also has verses of violence and adherents who terrorize.

The question for debate is how much is ignorance to blame instead of religion?
Is Islam play a particularly responsible role in the culture of terrorism?

Happy anniversary for Boston.

Anybody notice how that in all the speechifying and testifying and signifying the name of God and quotations from His Word was largely omitted?

That's a good thing . . . no?

Except for Hishonor the Mayor, who quoted from the book of James, all the calls for solidarity were to one's fellow man - or woman as the case may be.

I'm surprised someone didn't trot out a flag and drool all over it in worship. That's usually somewhere on the agenda. Maybe I missed it.....NOT.

Religion should be kept out of sporting events and politics and school and . . . well, everything, it harbors hatred and contempt, it breeds guilt and jealousy.

[heavensgate]

[Replying to post 1 by Danmark]

It's what we do. We are good at it so why stop?
The problem is not only with religion, it is with us as a race. Take away religion all together and the world will find other avenues to promote dominion over others. You only need to look at the Non religious movements of the last hundred years to figure that. It's not religion, it's not atheism, it's us.

[Danmark]

The Better Angels of our Nature

Pinker presents some astonishing numbers. Tribal warfare was nine times as deadly as war and genocide in the 20th century. The murder rate of Medieval Europe was more than thirty times what it is today. Slavery, sadistic punishments, and frivolous executions were unexceptionable features of life for millennia.....What led people to stop sacrificing children, stabbing each other at the dinner table, or burning cats and disemboweling criminals as forms of popular entertainment? ....Pinker argues the spread of government, literacy, trade, and cosmopolitanism, we increasingly control our impulses, empathize with others, bargain rather than plunder, debunk toxic ideologies, and deploy our powers of reason to reduce the temptations of violence.

http://stevenpinker.com/publications/be ... our-nature
This chart, posted by McCulloch in
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... sc&start=0
is interesting. The decrease in violence during the latter half of the 20th Century and in this Century coincides with the rise of secularism, secular governments, and the rise of atheism along with a decrease in religious belief in the countries most able to wage war on a massive scale.

[heavensgate]

The Better Angels of our Nature

Pinker presents some astonishing numbers. Tribal warfare was nine times as deadly as war and genocide in the 20th century. The murder rate of Medieval Europe was more than thirty times what it is today. Slavery, sadistic punishments, and frivolous executions were unexceptionable features of life for millennia.....What led people to stop sacrificing children, stabbing each other at the dinner table, or burning cats and disemboweling criminals as forms of popular entertainment? ....Pinker argues the spread of government, literacy, trade, and cosmopolitanism, we increasingly control our impulses, empathize with others, bargain rather than plunder, debunk toxic ideologies, and deploy our powers of reason to reduce the temptations of violence.

http://stevenpinker.com/publications/be ... our-nature
This chart, posted by McCulloch in
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... sc&start=0
is interesting. The decrease in violence during the latter half of the 20th Century and in this Century coincides with the rise of secularism, secular governments, and the rise of atheism along with a decrease in religious belief in the countries most able to wage war on a massive scale.

Wow, what magic is wrought by statistics! It's really how you read it. Firstly, a considerable volume of Pinkers work draws on the efforts of others.
Eisner for one was one that recognised the influence of the reformation as a huge contributor to the softening of mankind, through ethics and advocating in a varieties of causes. What the chart does show is the rise of the WWII which primarily came about by an anti-Christian atheist ideology. So how does a so called reduction in violence (which is strongly contested) as per the 'chart' demonstrate that atheism is the cause of such tranquil benefits we now enjoy. Hmmm....seems that the 10 precent of those that declare themselves atheist have an incredible influence on the statistics.
What the chart does not tell you about the facts of the real influences that are inhibiting factors.
Firstly, you have not shown where the full parameters of the information are gathered from. Is it western, does it really include African and third world stats. Does it gloss over the crisis of loss or lack of law enforcement (such as LA riots and NY power black out), does it address the standoff between the west and the east as ameliorating factors that may just break out given the right circumstances.
Pinker is not my book, so if you can answer some of these it would be helpful to the debate.

[heavensgate]

[Replying to post 16 by Cain]

Religion should be kept out of sporting events and politics and school and . . . well, everything, it harbors hatred and contempt, it breeds guilt and jealousy.

Man..!!!! Did you read this before you posted?