This Pope is Special

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Danmark
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This Pope is Special

Post #1

Post by Danmark »

I am not a theist, but there is something special about Pope Francis.
We can all learn something from him.
The most important things cannot be put into words.

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Re: This Pope is Special

Post #51

Post by marco »

RightReason wrote: [Replying to marco]
When Jesus uttered the words: "I AM GOD" there was no ambiguity.
Not true. Men have been disagreeing on those three words from the moment they've been spoken. I think JPII in fact spent an entire chapter of one of his books just talking about those 3 words alone.
You miss the point. Had Jesus actually said "I am God" there would be no argument about what he thought. He didn't say the words. Hence the confusion.
RightReason wrote:
Yes, which makes my point that an ultimate interpreter is necessary and requires the same faith that allowed us to believe Jesus walked the earth and died for our sins. That truth does not require any less of an act of faith as believing He established an authoritative earthly Church whom He left in charge.
Put not your faith in princes! An "ultimate interpreter", I agree, is a solve-all solution. And yes, belief in such is as hard as belief in a merciful, loving and present God. But hope unfortunately does not create reality - rather, it confuses it.

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Re: This Pope is Special

Post #52

Post by marco »

tam wrote:
I'm sorry. But where did He state those three words?

He didn't say: I AM GOD. I said had he done so, we would have the problem cleared up.

People deduce that Jesus is God from a variety of statements by others, but there is confusion and ambiguity. My point was IF he had said these three words, we'd know what Jesus wanted us to believe. Go well, Tam.

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Re: This Pope is Special

Post #53

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to tam]

Well, here:

Isaiah 45:5
5 I am God, the only God there is. Besides me there are no real gods. I'm the one who armed you for this work, though you don't even know me

And here:

Psalm 46:10
"Cease striving and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth."

But he probably was referring more to the words I am here:

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

I think he was trying to make a point that all believers can agree God was God in His statement, “I Am who I Am� but actually there are probably multiple understandings about even what God saying, “I Am Who AM� or when He says, “I am God� means. Which is my point. Everything must be interpreted which is why even what we might think as obvious still requires interpretation. Hence the establishment of a Church as our earthly voice.

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Re: This Pope is Special

Post #54

Post by tam »

marco wrote:
tam wrote:
I'm sorry. But where did He state those three words?

He didn't say: I AM GOD. I said had he done so, we would have the problem cleared up.

People deduce that Jesus is God from a variety of statements by others, but there is confusion and ambiguity. My point was IF he had said these three words, we'd know what Jesus wanted us to believe. Go well, Tam.

Yes, that is what I thought you meant, thank you, Marco.


I would suggest that by His words we do know what He wants us to believe. The problem is that people do not take Him at His word; keep insisting He said something He never said. So people have sown the confusion. But another topic perhaps.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: This Pope is Special

Post #55

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to marco]
My point was IF he had said these three words, we'd know what Jesus wanted us to believe.
But my point is there is no perfect thing God/Christ could have said. With human beings involved there is always the risk of not understanding – clarification is often necessary in any language in any time. It is simply the nature of language and communication.

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Re: This Pope is Special

Post #56

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 54 by tam]

I would suggest that by His words we do know what He wants us to believe.
And that is what every sincere truth seeking Christian declares and yet all believe different things – LOL!
The problem is that people do not take Him at His word; keep insisting He said something He never said.
And who interprets His word? Who has the final authority when there is disagreement? I have already shown how testing according to “the Light of Tammy� doesn’t work for everyone.
So people have sown the confusion.
Yes, just like God predicted and why He left us His Church!!!!!!!!

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Re: This Pope is Special

Post #57

Post by marco »

RightReason wrote:
But my point is there is no perfect thing God/Christ could have said. With human beings involved there is always the risk of not understanding – clarification is often necessary in any language in any time. It is simply the nature of language and communication.
Let us not jest. The words: I AM GOD are an example of direct, clear communication. Christ seems to have avoided such clarity. Indubitably, had he wished, he could have made a definitive statement. He didn't. That there are in the world thick souls who will fail to understand any format of words, however simple, needn't trouble our argument here.

I agree that the statements Christ did make, such as the Beatitudes, are filled with doubt and double meaning.

Your earlier quotes are not Christ's. There are assumptions that they refer to Christ. I can't see the point in your quoting them when we are discussing the absence of any statement from Christ that tells us he is God.

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Re: This Pope is Special

Post #58

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 57 by marco]

Yes, perhaps I am unclear on what is being discussed. Are you turning this into a thread about the Trinity? I am unclear. If you want to see how/why we can know Christ is God, I can provide a great deal of Scripture. I just however had no idea that that was the discussion.

It can be demonstrated via Scripture, via testimony of Christ’s followers, historical records, early Church writings, Christ’s Church, and pretty much the entirety of Christendom that Jesus is God. In fact, many might think it odd that someone would have had to say something that was revealed in every other way already. But again, your wish that God would have chosen different words in His revelation, or the fact that there could be doubt or uncertainty exactly makes my point and why Christ left us an earthly Church to clarify these things. I can assure you, even had Christ said 1000 times in Scripture, I am God, I am God, I am God, etc. there would be those like the JW’s who change the text and add the word ‘a’ and claim what Jesus really said was I am a god. Or there would be those who say, “yes, but He was just speaking symbolically�, or whatever.

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Re: This Pope is Special

Post #59

Post by marco »

RightReason wrote:
. If you want to see how/why we can know Christ is God, I can provide a great deal of Scripture. I just however had no idea that that was the discussion.
It isn't. I was being ironic in attributing the words I AM GOD to Christ.
RightReason wrote:
But again, your wish that God would have chosen different words in His revelation, or the fact that there could be doubt or uncertainty exactly makes my point and why Christ left us an earthly Church to clarify these things. I can assure you, even had Christ said 1000 times in Scripture, I am God, I am God, I am God, etc. there would be those like the JW’s who change the text and add the word ‘a’ and claim what Jesus really said was I am a god. Or there would be those who say, “yes, but He was just speaking symbolically�, or whatever.

I don't wish God had tried harder. I am saying Christ did not definitively state anywhere that he was God. People deduce this, rightly or wrongly.

I agree with you that people will argue over what seems the obvious. John's "Et verbum erat Deus" and the word was God - has mischievously been rendered "and the word was a god" to fit in with a particular theology. Many languages have no definite or indefinite articles. All the same, John's language is hardly an object lesson in how to be clear. I think if Jesus were God he would have done better than you or I in having his passport unambiguously recorded.

When we are left with Churchmen to interpret, we need colossal faith in our leaders to believe all that is said. Of course, if we accept: "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church...." as conferring divine authority, everything in RC rules follows logically, including Papal infallibility. Nor is it necessary for all popes to be shining lights. Judas was chosen and he was no light. But to have a pope who demonstrates charity and goodness such as Francis - or John Paul 11 - helps the cause immensely.

I stumble at the very first point of belief. A pity.

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Re: This Pope is Special

Post #60

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to marco]

We both agree that any word choice can be interpreted in different ways – so IMO seeing the phrase, “I am God� from Jesus is less important then looking at how Scripture describes everyone’s reaction toward Jesus. (When Jesus wanted to get a message across He often spoke in parables. Why? Because He often knew if He just said exactly what He wanted us to know/do, we could change/misunderstand/etc. His words. Helping us see the story helps us understand far better than some direct approach. This can’t always be done, but when it can, he utilizes it. Crazy, I know, but true)

Also, keep in mind Jesus’ audience at the time. They were familiar with ancient writings. They were familiar with God calling Himself “I am�. So when Jesus said . . .

I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, -John 8:56

They knew exactly that Jesus was calling Himself God here as evidenced by their actions!

*********************************************************************


The New Testament is replete with direct and indirect claims of Christ's divinity. Perhaps the most famous is the beginning of the Gospel of John: "In the beginning was the word and the word of with God and the word was God" (John 1:1-3). Jesus is the word made flesh (John 1:14). Jesus is God.

Nevertheless, people have struggled to find places where Jesus himself claims to be divine. If you're looking for a passage in Scripture where Jesus says, "Hey, everyone, I'm God!" you're not going to find it.

Jesus does make such a claim several times, but it isn't easy for us to see today, because we are not familiar with the first-century Jewish context he draws upon, and since these claims are somewhat veiled to our eyes, people can reinterpret Jesus' words to explain away his divine self-reference. While such words can be explained away, his audience's reaction to Jesus' words isn’t so easy to dismiss.

Unless your view of the ancient world comes from Monty Python, people didn't carry stones in their pockets just itching to stone someone. The charge of blasphemy was serious, and stoning was against Roman law. Therefore, the reaction of Jesus' original hearers provides a solid indicator as to whether he claimed to be divine.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... -to-be-god

See link for examples in Scripture where everyone knew Jesus claimed to be God, which of course is why He bothered so many. People did not hate Jesus because He was helping the sick, performed miracles, and told entertaining stories. People hated Jesus because they saw Him as blasphemous (He saw Himself as God). That was His crime!

This example and like other passages in Scripture, in particular where Jesus says, “Truly, Truly, I say to you unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood� we can understand what is being proclaimed by the reaction of those who actually were there when Jesus said it. After Jesus made this declaration, it says, many were shocked and appalled that He would make such a claim. Scripture tells us the crowd took offense at His words. Then it said, many left Him that day. Why would they have left Him if He was speaking symbolically? I am sorry, but that is a blatant disregard for the obviousness of the text. They even gave Jesus ample opportunity to clarify. They said to Him, these are hard words. Who can accept this? But did Jesus say something new/different to put them at ease? On the contrary, He repeated exactly what He said the first time with even more emphasis this time by saying, “Truly, Truly� and by saying my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Not exactly what the crowd was hoping to hear and so they turned away – not because they did NOT understand Him, but because they did!

Anyway, for reasons like this I find it difficult to accept the criticism that God/Jesus could have been more direct or used clearer words if He wanted us to know something. IMO, that is simply one more justification/excuse to not believe. And an unfounded one.

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