Bathroom police really?

[playhavock]

Do people really LIKE the bathroom laws that are being put into place? Anyone feel better now? I mean, seriously people - REALLY?! WHY IS THIS A THING?

[bluethread]

Do people really LIKE the bathroom laws that are being put into place? Anyone feel better now? I mean, seriously people - REALLY?! WHY IS THIS A THING?

I'm not sure what side you are taking on this. However, South Carolina and Alabama are just codifying the moral code to assure that they will be able to challenge any federal discrimination charges that might require businesses to permit biological men to go in the women's room.

[Divine Insight]

Do people really LIKE the bathroom laws that are being put into place? Anyone feel better now? I mean, seriously people - REALLY?! WHY IS THIS A THING?

I'm not sure what side you are taking on this. However, South Carolina and Alabama are just codifying the moral code to assure that they will be able to challenge any federal discrimination charges that might require businesses to permit biological men to go in the women's room.

So to prevent the federal government from protecting the rights of transgendered citizens they make a law that forces all businesses in their state to enforce insensitive bigotry toward transgendered people?

What if the businesses don't want to be forced to enforce insensitive bigotry onto their employees and patrons?

I'm surprised the people in these states aren't speaking out against their own legislators.

[bluethread]

Do people really LIKE the bathroom laws that are being put into place? Anyone feel better now? I mean, seriously people - REALLY?! WHY IS THIS A THING?

I'm not sure what side you are taking on this. However, South Carolina and Alabama are just codifying the moral code to assure that they will be able to challenge any federal discrimination charges that might require businesses to permit biological men to go in the women's room.

So to prevent the federal government from protecting the rights of transgendered citizens they make a law that forces all businesses in their state to enforce insensitive bigotry toward transgendered people?

What if the businesses don't want to be forced to enforce insensitive bigotry onto their employees and patrons?

I'm surprised the people in these states aren't speaking out against their own legislators.

So, are you saying that the federal government should enforce insensitivity to some 50% of the population, primarily women concerned about heterosexual men, to protect the sensitivity of .1% of the population?

[Divine Insight]

So, are you saying that the federal government should enforce insensitivity to some 50% of the population, primarily women concerned about heterosexual men, to protect the sensitivity of .1% of the population?

I disagree with your claim that anyone's sensitivity is being violated by allowing transgendered people to use the restrooms of the gender they identify with.

You don't seem to understand the problem. The woman you are talking about are not being asked to use the MENS restroom. Therefore they have nothing to complain about. They can just go about their lives normally with no need to change anything.

Clearly you aren't recognizing the problem from the transgender perspective. And neither are the legislators. They are just totally ignoring transgender as if it isn't real. They refuse to concede that it's real.

This is nothing more than pure ignorance. This is the typical reaction that people have when they don't understand something. Instead of taking the time to learn about it and understand it, they just want to make laws in the hope that they can just make it go away.

It isn't going away. So this isn't going to work anyway. It's a futile reaction based entirely on ignorance and an unwillingness to even learn and understand the true nature of the world we live in and the complex diversity of the human condition.

Ignorance is never the solution. And that's what these laws amount to. Nothing but pure ignorance of the reality of the transgender phenomena of the Human species.

Hate will not solve the problem. And that's basically all this law amounts to. Hatred toward transgenders. It's bigotry driven by ignorance. And it's totally devoid and empty of any love, compassion, or even the slightest understanding.

[bluethread]

So, are you saying that the federal government should enforce insensitivity to some 50% of the population, primarily women concerned about heterosexual men, to protect the sensitivity of .1% of the population?

I disagree with your claim that anyone's sensitivity is being violated by allowing transgendered people to use the restrooms of the gender they identify with.

You don't seem to understand the problem. The woman you are talking about are not being asked to use the MENS restroom. Therefore they have nothing to complain about. They can just go about their lives normally with no need to change anything.

Oh, those women are just going to about their lives normally, while men, who self identify as female, join them in the restroom. Sure, that is going to happen.

Clearly you aren't recognizing the problem from the transgender perspective. And neither are the legislators. They are just totally ignoring transgender as if it isn't real. They refuse to concede that it's real.

You clearly aren't recognizing that voyeurist men lie. Those legislators are choosing not to ignore that, even though some might not recognize that as real.

This is nothing more than pure ignorance. This is the typical reaction that people have when they don't understand something. Instead of taking the time to learn about it and understand it, they just want to make laws in the hope that they can just make it go away.

Exposing business owners to accusations of civil rights violations for monitoring who goes into what bathroom is indeed pure ignorance. Those accusations of civil rights violations are the typical reaction of people who think they know better. Instead of taking the time to learn about and understand the consequences of their actions, they just want claim that their rights have been violated in the hope that they can get what they want without consequence.

It isn't going away. So this isn't going to work anyway. It's a futile reaction based entirely on ignorance and an unwillingness to even learn and understand the true nature of the world we live in and the complex diversity of the human condition.

Voyeurism is not going away either. This is just a knee jerk reaction based entirely on ideology and an unwillingness to even recognize and understand the true nature of the world we live in.

Ignorance is never the solution. And that's what these laws amount to. Nothing but pure ignorance of the reality of the transgender phenomena of the Human species.

Yes, ignorance is never the solution. And that's what these civil rights claims amount to. Nothing but pure ignorance of the reality of the voyeuristic phenomena of the Human species.

Hate will not solve the problem. And that's basically all this law amounts to. Hatred toward transgenders. It's bigotry driven by ignorance. And it's totally devoid and empty of any love, compassion, or even the slightest understanding.

Yah, women are opposed to this because they hate .01% of the population. They don't want men in their restrooms because they are bigots and their unwillingness to expose themselves to the risks of having their junk displayed on the internet is just empty of any love, compassion, or even the slightest understanding.

[Divine Insight]

Oh, those women are just going to about their lives normally, while men, who self identify as female, join them in the restroom. Sure, that is going to happen.

Yes they are if these men who identify as female are genuine transgendered individuals.

Clearly you aren't recognizing the problem from the transgender perspective. And neither are the legislators. They are just totally ignoring transgender as if it isn't real. They refuse to concede that it's real.

You clearly aren't recognizing that voyeurist men lie. Those legislators are choosing not to ignore that, even though some might not recognize that as real.

Now you are talking about illegal criminals. That's an entirely different issue.

These laws weren't made to address that issue, because in truth that particular scenario is indeed a non-issue. That is simply not happening on any scale that would require making laws about.

These laws are being made specifically to address transgendered individuals. So trying to use actual criminal behavior as an excuse for these laws is nonsense. In fact, the very fact that these laws have been made and will necessarily need to be eventually revoked will actually create a situation later where perverts can then use the revocation of this law to justify precisely what you have suggested here.

So these laws are ultimately going to back-fire in the worst possible way over time. Especially if they aren't revoked immediately.

This is nothing more than pure ignorance. This is the typical reaction that people have when they don't understand something. Instead of taking the time to learn about it and understand it, they just want to make laws in the hope that they can just make it go away.

Exposing business owners to accusations of civil rights violations for monitoring who goes into what bathroom is indeed pure ignorance. Those accusations of civil rights violations are the typical reaction of people who think they know better. Instead of taking the time to learn about and understand the consequences of their actions, they just want claim that their rights have been violated in the hope that they can get what they want without consequence.

I think you are still talking about pervert men who just want to dress up as women to get a gander at women in a women's restroom. This is a totally unrealistic fear.

But unfortunately the fact that these laws were instated and will eventually need to be revoked that will actually open the door for actual perverts (non-transgendered individuals) trying to take advantage of the fact that these laws have been revoked.

This is why it was doubly stupid to instate these kind of laws in the first place.

It isn't going away. So this isn't going to work anyway. It's a futile reaction based entirely on ignorance and an unwillingness to even learn and understand the true nature of the world we live in and the complex diversity of the human condition.

Voyeurism is not going away either. This is just a knee jerk reaction based entirely on ideology and an unwillingness to even recognize and understand the true nature of the world we live in.

These laws weren't made against voyeurs. There is no problem of voyeurism in these states that would have required making laws to suppress that activity. These laws were made specifically to refuse to recognize and accommodate the transgender and LGBT community.

Ignorance is never the solution. And that's what these laws amount to. Nothing but pure ignorance of the reality of the transgender phenomena of the Human species.

Yes, ignorance is never the solution. And that's what these civil rights claims amount to. Nothing but pure ignorance of the reality of the voyeuristic phenomena of the Human species.

These laws have nothing at all to do with voyeurism. These laws were created expressly for the purpose of supposedly protecting the "Religious Rights" of religious people who do not recognize the validity of the LGBT community.

Trying to twist this issue into being about voyeurism is simply baloney.

Hate will not solve the problem. And that's basically all this law amounts to. Hatred toward transgenders. It's bigotry driven by ignorance. And it's totally devoid and empty of any love, compassion, or even the slightest understanding.

Yah, women are opposed to this because they hate .01% of the population. They don't want men in their restrooms because they are bigots and their unwillingness to expose themselves to the risks of having their junk displayed on the internet is just empty of any love, compassion, or even the slightest understanding.

It's ignorance of the fact that transgendered individuals are REAL PEOPLE. These are people who have a "gender crisis" that has been validated by the psychological community as being very REAL.

People need to grow up and realize that the world we live in is not perfect. Not everyone identifies with the gender of the plumbing they may have been born with. This doesn't justify hating them and refusing to understand their situation.

This is nothing but ignorance. Ignorance that is unfortunately supported be religions. Religions that claim to be all about love and compassion, but that truly serve as nothing more than support for ignorance, intolerance, and ultimately hatred.

Basically what you are suggesting is that the LGBT community is nothing but a bunch of voyeuristic perverts. But psychologists have verified that this is not the case. These transgendered individuals are real people who have a genuine gender crisis going on in their life, and they need to be accepted for who they are, and not treated as some sort of freak show or just branded as voyeuristic perverts.

To refuse to recognize the reality of these people is bad enough. To suggest that they are nothing more than voyeuristic perverts is far worse. Now you are not only refusing to recognize the reality of their situation, but you are adding injury to insult by suggesting that they have ulterior motivations.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 7 by Divine Insight]

These transgendered individuals are real people who have a genuine gender crisis going on in their life, and they need to be accepted for who they are, and not treated as some sort of freak show or just branded as voyeuristic perverts.

Agreed.

Entrance into bathrooms and dressing rooms, and gendered toilets should, however, always be based on actual outward gender possessed.

The transgender who have changed gender by operation should enter those of their new gender, but all others should only be able to enter facilities intended for the physical gender they were born as and still retain.

[Divine Insight]

Agreed.

Entrance into bathrooms and dressing rooms, and gendered toilets should, however, always be based on actual outward gender possessed.

The transgender who have changed gender by operation should enter those of their new gender, but all others should only be able to enter facilities intended for the physical gender they were born as and still retain.

I'll grant that this sounds good on the surface. However, I would argue that it's not quite that simple in reality. There are transgender individuals who, while having very strong personality reasons for wanting to identity with another "gender", are simply not interested in having their physical plumbing mutilated by an operation that tries to convert their plumbing over to physically "resemble" the other physical "sex".

They might be open to having an omnipotent God wave a magic wand over them and magically transform their body into the other sex. But can anyone blame them for not wanting to have medical doctors tear apart their current genitals and try to sew them back together again in an effort to try to mimic what the doctor thinks the other sex should look like?

This is what I'm talking about when I suggest that much of this is based on ignorance of what it's even like to have a "transgender" personality crisis. It's just not that simple. Just because a person identifies with a different "gender" doesn't mean they necessarily want doctors hacking away at their genitals.

And besides, would this really change anything anyway? You would still have the very same person using that restroom in either case. The fact that they had a physical operation won't change who they are.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 9 by Divine Insight]

This is what I'm talking about when I suggest that much of this is based on ignorance of what it's even like to have a "transgender" personality crisis. It's just not that simple. Just because a person identifies with a different "gender" doesn't mean they necessarily want doctors hacking away at their genitals.

And besides, would this really change anything anyway? You would still have the very same person using that restroom in either case. The fact that they had a physical operation won't change who they are.

Yes but no.

There are two quite separate issues that have been put together and so we have two wrongs that do not one right make.

So far as the transgender are concerned, it is not about their genitals, but, as you say, about who they are as persons.

But as far as others who use those gendered facilities are concerned, it is about both, their genitals and who they are as persons.

Opposite genitals have no place in such gendered facilities. They never have had any place for very good reasons everyone is well aware of.

A female facility has potential or actual exposure of genitals or other normally covered body parts. A male in there who could thereby view those, or expose his own, can greatly affect who any females present are as persons.

And the same applies regarding any male facility.

We do not solve or salve one problem by creating one for others they would not otherwise have had.

Who a person is, is their private problem, if that is something they are struggling with. Treating them badly is counter-productive and unwarranted.

Who a person is, is not to be treated badly by the unwarranted impingement of others as a way to deal with their own issues.