Bathroom police really?

[playhavock]

Do people really LIKE the bathroom laws that are being put into place? Anyone feel better now? I mean, seriously people - REALLY?! WHY IS THIS A THING?

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 1 by playhavock]

I get the whole thing of 'encompassing everyone' where does it end? Maybe here but there are people who now claim to be black when they're white, or animals.....
Bathrooms should be uni-sex in public places. Maybe public bathrooms shouldn't be free? This might help eliminate some of the scumbags that pray on people in bathrooms (for those who are concerned about this).
Otherwise, go to the bathroom and get over it no matter what gender you are.

[Divine Insight]

I did not say women do not want transgendered persons using their bathrooms. I said women do not want men in their bathrooms.

It doesn't really matter what you say. What matters are the arguments the legislators give.

So, the effect of the law is not relevant? All that matters is the intentions of the legislators?

That's not at all what I said. I said that your opinion doesn't matter. I didn't say that the effect of the law is not relevant. To the contrary I said that what matters are the arguments that the legislators give for why they made a law, and that would indeed cover the "effect" that the law will have.

Again, you are conflating transvestitism and transgendered. As has been pointed out by one person on this site who claims to be an authority, many transvestites are heterosexual. Allowing the transgendered to use the women's restroom would not change that.

I never even mentioned transvestites so I'm not conflating anything.

That is correct, many people who are going to commit acts of violence are not going to be deterred by which restroom someone goes into. So, allowing men to go into the women's restroom is not going to stop this. These men who commit terrible acts in the men's room can just do them in the women's room. The problem is violence, not where the violence occurs.

Agreed. Therefore these proposed bathroom laws aren't doing anything to protect anyone. All they end up doing is making criminals out of people who are NOT being violent and have no intention of becoming committing any violent acts.

Assault does not require one to be badly beaten. All that is required is a threat. However, as stated above, if people are allowed to use whatever bathroom they choose, the beaters will just go into the women's room to do their beating.

The "beaters" are already criminals and would certainly not refrain from entering a woman's restroom just because there is a law on the books against it. After all, there already exists laws against beating people but they intend to that anyway. So apparently the "beaters" aren't dissuaded by laws at all.

I am not aware of any evidence that allowing men to use the women's room has reduced violence against the transgendered. In fact, when I researched the bathroom violence you mentioned, the only thing I could find was an incident at the Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village. This is ground zero for the LGBT. So, it doesn't stop violence there, how is it going to stop the violence anywhere else?

I disagree. I believe there is evidence that it prevents violence in many places. But it's clearly not going to prevent all violence in all places.

There will always be hateful people committing violent crimes. In fact, I suggest that religious bigotry taught by religions actually incites much of this violence. So if we want to stop this kind of violence we should quit teaching people that God hates gays. That would certainly be a great help there.

[bluethread]

I did not say women do not want transgendered persons using their bathrooms. I said women do not want men in their bathrooms.

It doesn't really matter what you say. What matters are the arguments the legislators give.

So, the effect of the law is not relevant? All that matters is the intentions of the legislators?

That's not at all what I said. I said that your opinion doesn't matter. I didn't say that the effect of the law is not relevant. To the contrary I said that what matters are the arguments that the legislators give for why they made a law, and that would indeed cover the "effect" that the law will have.

So, the fact that women don't want men in their restroom doesn't matter? They were just codifying that social standard. The reason the transgendered are mentioned is that they are the ones who are questioning that standard. Basing a law on how one self-identifies totally overturns that standard such that any man can use the women's restroom.

Again, you are conflating transvestitism and transgendered. As has been pointed out by one person on this site who claims to be an authority, many transvestites are heterosexual. Allowing the transgendered to use the women's restroom would not change that.

I never even mentioned transvestites so I'm not conflating anything.

Post 28 Devine Insight:
"Women aren't going to beat up a woman who dresses like a man."
"On the other hand men often take exception to other men dressing like women."

That is correct, many people who are going to commit acts of violence are not going to be deterred by which restroom someone goes into. So, allowing men to go into the women's restroom is not going to stop this. These men who commit terrible acts in the men's room can just do them in the women's room. The problem is violence, not where the violence occurs.

Agreed. Therefore these proposed bathroom laws aren't doing anything to protect anyone. All they end up doing is making criminals out of people who are NOT being violent and have no intention of becoming committing any violent acts.

Then why keep men who don't self identify as women out of the women's restroom, which is implicate in these gender identity based access laws? At least that is how it is argued by the proponents of those laws. By the way, these laws cover all public facilities including showers and locker rooms, not just restrooms..

Assault does not require one to be badly beaten. All that is required is a threat. However, as stated above, if people are allowed to use whatever bathroom they choose, the beaters will just go into the women's room to do their beating.

The "beaters" are already criminals and would certainly not refrain from entering a woman's restroom just because there is a law on the books against it. After all, there already exists laws against beating people but they intend to that anyway. So apparently the "beaters" aren't dissuaded by laws at all.

So, you have no point. If "beaters" are going to beat people either way, there is no point to providing the potential victims access to the women's room, especially if the "beaters" are also granted the same access.

I am not aware of any evidence that allowing men to use the women's room has reduced violence against the transgendered. In fact, when I researched the bathroom violence you mentioned, the only thing I could find was an incident at the Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village. This is ground zero for the LGBT. So, it doesn't stop violence there, how is it going to stop the violence anywhere else?

I disagree. I believe there is evidence that it prevents violence in many places. But it's clearly not going to prevent all violence in all places.

There will always be hateful people committing violent crimes. In fact, I suggest that religious bigotry taught by religions actually incites much of this violence. So if we want to stop this kind of violence we should quit teaching people that God hates gays. That would certainly be a great help there.

Hold it. We are talking about bathroom access for all men and women. Are you saying that atheist women who want privacy are religious bigots?

[Strider324]

Who are these women who are so frightened to see men in the restroom? Good grief, Europeans have had unisex restrooms for decades. My own wife and daughters and I shared public restrooms in Salzburg, Lucerne, Munich, Paris and Vienna. Believe it or not, none of us were traumatized.

This is just an anally retentive American thing - the 'logical' result of demonizing sexuality and embracing a paternalistic misogyny that says "our wimmenz must be protected!"

From what? I google "crimes by transgender males in public restrooms in the US", and I get ZERO as the result. So much for protecting women.

I google "crimes by heterosexual males against males and children in restrooms in the US", and I get a butt load of hits. Where is the outcry from the religious right to provide separate restrooms for children?? There is none - because the real goal is simply to demonize anyone that is not a strict heterosexual and force them to disclose their gender identity in order to humiliate them. It's the religious rights petulant reaction to losing every battle so far to enforce their childish, hateful sexual puritanism on everyone else. They lost the battle against same-sex marriage, in precisely the same way they lost their pious battle against inter-racial marriage, and now they want to pout their way into marginalizing and bullying anyone that doesn't meet their narrow-minded view of 'proper' sexual roles.

Bathroom laws? It's a national embarrassment, and makes decent Christians look like self-righteous 4th grade hall monitors. I can't fathom why so many self-proclaimed Christians waste so much energy on things that have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. It's baffling.

[bluethread]

Who are these women who are so frightened to see men in the restroom? Good grief, Europeans have had unisex restrooms for decades. My own wife and daughters and I shared public restrooms in Salzburg, Lucerne, Munich, Paris and Vienna. Believe it or not, none of us were traumatized.

This is just an anally retentive American thing - the 'logical' result of demonizing sexuality and embracing a paternalistic misogyny that says "our wimmenz must be protected!"

From what? I google "crimes by transgender males in public restrooms in the US", and I get ZERO as the result. So much for protecting women.

I google "crimes by heterosexual males against males and children in restrooms in the US", and I get a butt load of hits. Where is the outcry from the religious right to provide separate restrooms for children?? There is none - because the real goal is simply to demonize anyone that is not a strict heterosexual and force them to disclose their gender identity in order to humiliate them. It's the religious rights petulant reaction to losing every battle so far to enforce their childish, hateful sexual puritanism on everyone else. They lost the battle against same-sex marriage, in precisely the same way they lost their pious battle against inter-racial marriage, and now they want to pout their way into marginalizing and bullying anyone that doesn't meet their narrow-minded view of 'proper' sexual roles.

Bathroom laws? It's a national embarrassment, and makes decent Christians look like self-righteous 4th grade hall monitors. I can't fathom why so many self-proclaimed Christians waste so much energy on things that have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. It's baffling.

Your reference to this as an "American thing", in relation to restrooms, is well taken, but laying this at the feet of Christianity is a bit simplistic. What about atheist women who do not want to share a locker room or shower with someone with a penis? You are aware that these are also covered by the equal access laws. Also, why even limit the access to the transgendered. Why limit access to bathrooms, locker rooms and showers in any way at all?

[Divine Insight]

Your reference to this as an "American thing", in relation to restrooms, is well taken, but laying this at the feet of Christianity is a bit simplistic. What about atheist women who do not want to share a locker room or shower with someone with a penis? You are aware that these are also covered by the equal access laws. Also, why even limit the access to the transgendered. Why limit access to bathrooms, locker rooms and showers in any way at all?

People need to get past their ignorance and get educated:

[youtube][/youtube]

[Strider324]

Who are these women who are so frightened to see men in the restroom? Good grief, Europeans have had unisex restrooms for decades. My own wife and daughters and I shared public restrooms in Salzburg, Lucerne, Munich, Paris and Vienna. Believe it or not, none of us were traumatized.

This is just an anally retentive American thing - the 'logical' result of demonizing sexuality and embracing a paternalistic misogyny that says "our wimmenz must be protected!"

From what? I google "crimes by transgender males in public restrooms in the US", and I get ZERO as the result. So much for protecting women.

I google "crimes by heterosexual males against males and children in restrooms in the US", and I get a butt load of hits. Where is the outcry from the religious right to provide separate restrooms for children?? There is none - because the real goal is simply to demonize anyone that is not a strict heterosexual and force them to disclose their gender identity in order to humiliate them. It's the religious rights petulant reaction to losing every battle so far to enforce their childish, hateful sexual puritanism on everyone else. They lost the battle against same-sex marriage, in precisely the same way they lost their pious battle against inter-racial marriage, and now they want to pout their way into marginalizing and bullying anyone that doesn't meet their narrow-minded view of 'proper' sexual roles.

Bathroom laws? It's a national embarrassment, and makes decent Christians look like self-righteous 4th grade hall monitors. I can't fathom why so many self-proclaimed Christians waste so much energy on things that have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. It's baffling.

Your reference to this as an "American thing", in relation to restrooms, is well taken, but laying this at the feet of Christianity is a bit simplistic. What about atheist women who do not want to share a locker room or shower with someone with a penis? You are aware that these are also covered by the equal access laws. Also, why even limit the access to the transgendered. Why limit access to bathrooms, locker rooms and showers in any way at all?

Do you actually know any atheist women that have such irrational fears? The atheist women I know do not. Then again, they tend to be highly educated and enlightened, without the usual cultural paranoia concerning the dangers of a (gasp!) penis.

And I quite agree, there is no valid reason to limit access to bathrooms at all. Again, Europeans have been doing it for decades. Women there don't lose their minds because someone 2 stalls down has a (gasp!) penis. That's a childish reaction to human anatomy, one perpetuated by the dogmatic puritan ethic that has always sought to demonize the physical body - first assuming men have no control over a loose (gasp!) penis, and then that women are too stupid or docile or in need of protection to be able to handle seeing one.

Who were the Puritans? Yes, a religious group of hall monitors. What specific groups are behind the bathroom paranoia? Again, religion. There's nothing simplistic about this reality. Christianity teaches body shaming, and has for centuries. It's yet another thing they share with Islam.

I think if Jesus was asked how important it was to keep clothed and enforce bathroom sexism, he would likely admonish us to focus on more important things than the human body and the dreaded (gasp!) penis.

[bluethread]

I think if Jesus was asked how important it was to keep clothed and enforce bathroom sexism, he would likely admonish us to focus on more important things than the human body and the dreaded (gasp!) penis.

You said nothing about public showers. I never said "dreaded (gasp!) penis". However, do you feel just as strongly about locker rooms and showers. Is it puritanical to think that men and women showing together could cause problems?

You also appear to think that Yeshua would oppose the modesty laws in HaTorah. On what do you base this assumption?

By the way, this is not about theism. Here is the site: Seculars Against Same Sex "Marriage"

[bluethread]

People need to get past their ignorance and get educated:

[youtube][/youtube]

Presuming that everyone in this video is absolutely correct in everything they say, I do not think it constitutes a "civil right" to unfettered access to all government facilities. That is what started this whole thing. In Washington State there have been reasonable accommodations, without unfettered access. However, for some that is not good enough.

[Strider324]

I think if Jesus was asked how important it was to keep clothed and enforce bathroom sexism, he would likely admonish us to focus on more important things than the human body and the dreaded (gasp!) penis.

You said nothing about public showers. I never said "dreaded (gasp!) penis". However, do you feel just as strongly about locker rooms and showers. Is it puritanical to think that men and women showing together could cause problems?

You also appear to think that Yeshua would oppose the modesty laws in HaTorah. On what do you base this assumption?

By the way, this is not about theism. Here is the site: Seculars Against Same Sex "Marriage"

Public showers should be public - without the unreasonable 'shame' imposed by religion. So no, I see no valid reason to not have unisex public showers. People who demand respect for their own body shaming should simply use their own showers.

And what 'problems' do you imagine ensue from men and women being naked together? Are penises simply weapons to you, that must be used if exposed? Or is it the specter of a visible vagina or female breast that has you alarmed? Those are irrational problems for immature and repressed people. And while those people certainly exist, I don't think it is reasonable to enable their repression and immaturity. And on topic, I certainly cannot justify someone's paranoia that a transgender male in a women's restroom while cause any problems, as the data makes it clear that it is a non-issue. The only people at risk of harm here are the transgendered - not any women.

Jesus would not oppose modesty laws, I just don't think he would get so excited by them that he made them a priority, the way the religious right does in its zeal to always be preoccupied with bodily functions like some 7 year old.

And the notion that sexual and gender paranoia is not primarily fueled by religion is a dodge. I can find some Jews for Jesus. Doesn't have anything to do with what the vast majority of Jews believe.