Is religion at the root of present day atrocities?

[marco]

In Manchester, England, we had a suicide bomber murder 22 people, many of them children. As usual the perpetrator was a Muslim and as usual we are reminded that Islam is a religion of peace. But it spawns people to murder innocent folk, usually with the pointless observation that Allah is great.

It is possible to leaf through the Koran and find verses that justify cruelty and we can also find verses that condemn it.

Is there an answer to this never ending circle of violence?
Does the problem reside with values that belong to a barbaric age?

[bluethread]

It appears that, in the title of this thread, you are painting with a very broad brush. Theism does not by definition lead to those activities. Even if one narrows it down to Islam, blaming a philosophy for a set of particular actions is a slippery slope. Faulting specific individuals or organizations for approving of particular practices, is more justified. That is why I like to differentiate between philosophy(ideas) and religion(practices).

[marco]

It appears that, in the title of this thread, you are painting with a very broad brush. Theism does not by definition lead to those activities. Even if one narrows it down to Islam, blaming a philosophy for a set of particular actions is a slippery slope. Faulting specific individuals or organizations for approving of particular practices, is more justified. That is why I like to differentiate between philosophy(ideas) and religion(practices).

I don't disagree, bluethread. You say "theism does not by definition lead to atrocities" - and of course the definition of theism contains nothing about atrocities. This is easily conceded.

The organisation of vast groups of individuals, serving a deity whom they endow with their own proclivities, does lead to atrocities. Yes, perhaps my brush was too broad; the brutality that characterised Christianity a few centuries ago has almost gone. Belief in a God is not religion, as I understand it; one's personal philosophy, risen out of reason, is a far cry from organised religion. And I know that many people - the majority in fact - who regularly attend their place of worship are good individuals. I do not believe their goodness springs from their grouping, but from the decency they were born with and cultivate. And of course Judaism offers no threat to me. Perhaps the focus should be on Islam, except that Christianity went through the same brutal period until reason met God.

[Kenisaw]

In Manchester, England, we had a suicide bomber murder 22 people, many of them children. As usual the perpetrator was a Muslim and as usual we are reminded that Islam is a religion of peace. But it spawns people to murder innocent folk, usually with the pointless observation that Allah is great.

It is possible to leaf through the Koran and find verses that justify cruelty and we can also find verses that condemn it.

Is there an answer to this never ending circle of violence?
Does the problem reside with values that belong to a barbaric age?

The problem, as it relates specifically to Islam, is that Islam is not just a religious dogma, but a political one as well. The political side of Islam is part of the motivating reasoning that many terrorists use when they decide to do what they do.

As it relates to the title of your thread, religion is very often used by people as the reason for their atrocities. Religion is also used as a reason for other things, like denying equal rights to gay people for example. But it's hard for me to argue that religion is to blame. People are the ones that decide what to do and then proceed to do those actions. Just because someone is motivated by a dogma does not mean the dogma is to blame. I state this on the other side of the discussion too, by the way, when people try to blame atheism for the acts of Stalin or Pol Pot.

The real issue, in my mind, is that we need to better educate people so that they think more rationally and can better understand the consequences of their actions. Things like religions can offer a short cut around logic and allow people to ignore reality and responsibility and sell themselves a justification for their atrocities.

Even if the world rid itself of the yoke of religion, humans would probably find something else to make excuses for what they do. And governments would find some other opiate for the masses...

[bluethread]

Perhaps the focus should be on Islam, except that Christianity went through the same brutal period until reason met God.

I believe that the problem is more political than religious. As with all wars, the real issue is establishing the overarching legal authority. Though this has been addressed here and there, the real conflict is between sharia and western democracy. It appears to me that there are two reasons why the focus is not on this ideological debate. First, it is much easier to engage in demagoguery than ideological debate. Second, if people are trained to engage in ideological debate, that debate can then be turned on our demagogues. This leaves us in political paralysis. One side seeks to solve the problem by selling policies using demagoguery and the other side argues that that only reason there is a problem is because of demagoguery. Both are wrong, IMO.

[marco]

Even if the world rid itself of the yoke of religion, humans would probably find something else to make excuses for what they do. And governments would find some other opiate for the masses...

I agree with you, Kenisaw. Religion produces wonderfully nice people and it gave us the Inquisition. Somehow we pulled ourselves away from Christian atrocities and, to some extent, saw sense in disregarding some of the darker Biblical passages, not before some innocent people were murdered just for being gay.

Today Islam is medieval Christianity where people want to murder others for saying unkind things about Muhammad or making drawings of the man. We will just have to live (or die) through this period of transition. The darker passages of the Koran invite hatred towards "unbelievers" and if God asks, then there are plenty of people who will oblige. It will be harder for Muslims to erase Koranic passages because the Koran is God's written word. Alas.

[marco]

I believe that the problem is more political than religious.

Exactly so. In the Middle Eastern theocracies there is no difference between political and religious dogma. He who seems to hold the hand of Muhammad has most power, and heaven help those who deny it.

Orators can stir up such antipathy that murder is the natural consequence. We kill the pupils but forget the teachers when an atrocity occurs.

[JP Cusick]

In Manchester, England, we had a suicide bomber murder 22 people, many of them children. As usual the perpetrator was a Muslim and as usual we are reminded that Islam is a religion of peace. But it spawns people to murder innocent folk, usually with the pointless observation that Allah is great.

It is possible to leaf through the Koran and find verses that justify cruelty and we can also find verses that condemn it.

Is there an answer to this never ending circle of violence?
Does the problem reside with values that belong to a barbaric age?

I heard on a PBS News report (not on mainstream fake News) that in the same month that the Manchester incident happened then the USA alone killed some 250 civilians in Syria, and of those 250 there were 55 children killed by the USA.

Those are 250 non combatants killed as re[ported on PBS, so the number of so called combatants killed by the USA must have been many more than that.

In Manchester it was 22 people total, and just a few of them were children, so why is this double standard supported in the West? why does our side moan and grown about 22 here when we murder 250 over there?

And the USA killing 250 civilians is indeed murder, and it was just that one month while the USA has been doing these murders for many years now - every month.

The reason for our Western double standard where our side sees it as okay to murder Muslims but it is terrible if any Muslim dares to strike back - is because our side has lost our religious values and discarded our religious virtues and our morals and we act as infidels = our infidelity to God. That is the answer.

[marco]

And the USA killing 250 civilians is indeed murder, and it was just that one month while the USA has been doing these murders for many years now - every month.

There is a difference between killing innocent people DELIBERATELY and killing them in a war situation. One is murder and the other is not. When rocket sites are placed under schools, the intention of the "innocent defenders" is to have children killed. How, tell us, can ISIS be tackled without civilian casualties? Their propaganda feeds on civilian casualties and requires artless apologists for its successful transmission.

The reason for our Western double standard where our side sees it as okay to murder Muslims but it is terrible if any Muslim dares to strike back.

I have NEVER heard anyone say this but you. It is not right to murder anyone. Muslims in Syria are being murdered by Muslims; some countries are trying to eliminate ISIS; a group of Muslim countries are at the same time trying to eliminate each other. It is extremely naïve to translate this horrible killing spree into an American atrocity. It is worse to equate a brute who DELIBERATELY targets innocent people in a theatre with combatants in a war zone.

The people being targeted by America and Western countries are the ones who publicly burned a Muslim soldier to death and who murdered an old Muslim man who was simply the keeper of archives. It is NOT about the West targeting Muslims. You are wrong to say this.

But the subject here is atrocities, not war and rumours from war zones. The mess that is the Middle East is loud with prayers to old gods. One wonders if there would be more chance of peace if Muslim, Christian and Jew became obsolete terms. What inspires people to murder innocent neighbours in a theatre or on a city street is a call from some brutal deity. That should never be excused.

[JP Cusick]

There is a difference between killing innocent people DELIBERATELY and killing them in a war situation. One is murder and the other is not.

But the USA is not at war, and the middle Eastern Countries are not attacking the USA nor threatening any military action.

We, the USA, are just bombing and killing the people without any declaration of war, and we are not even attacking the Syrian government as we are just murdering civilians.

The only hope for ending the violent hostilities would be for the USA to get some religion and start following some simple commandments as like = Thou shalt not murder.

We the USA really do not have any legitimate claim at all for our military to be in Syria.

The mess that is the Middle East is loud with prayers to old gods. One wonders if there would be more chance of peace if Muslim, Christian and Jew became obsolete terms. What inspires people to murder innocent neighbours in a theatre or on a city street is a call from some brutal deity. That should never be excused.

The so called new Deity (the new Gods) are the American ideals of superiority and self righteousness along with the American secularism and Atheism which sees no problems in the murder of Muslims in the name of our new American religion of brutality.

The thing for me though is that this is not some new American religion of murder and destruction to advance political agendas, no, this is the same old religion of brutes as from Nazi Germany or from old Rome and ancient Greece, and in fact it is the democracy in that the lynch mob mentality of the USA can be pressed on every other Country and people of the world who resist our intrusions.

You (marco) declare above without shame that you want to eliminate the religions - which is the same long old call of the brutes throughout human history.

It was that same mentality which put Jesus on a crucifixion, that fed Christians to the lions, which sent Jews into the gas chambers, and that now makes war against the religion of Islam.