Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

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marco
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Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

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And so beautiful Barcelona joins the list of cities terrorists have attacked. I don't doubt that there are those who will say America and the West are responsible. One of the terrorists apparently wrote of his desire to kill infidels.

I was in Madrid a few weeks ago and had intended to revisit Barcelona and its busy street, Las Ramblas, where the atrocities occurred. So terror is just a breath away, at least here in Europe.

Is it possible for those who want to kill to be educated if not by impious Westerners by Imams? Are those who want to kill "infidels" already known in their home circles? Obviously the scale of this lunacy will grow and we will hear on our screens the fatuous: "They will not win." But they do.

What can we do to ensure "they will not win"? Should the world convert to Islam, at least nominally?

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Post #201

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[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 194#942194]If bombers are consistently Islamic, then one must make the assumption that if we concentrate on looking at Islamic communities, we will maybe find culprits.[/quote]

You speak of bombs as though they were the first to use such things and if you do you are wrong-----------

July 22, 1946. Zionist terrorists blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem,.,.,killing or injuring more than 200 persons.
October 1, 1946. The British Embassy in Rome was badly damaged by bomb explosions, for which Irgun claimed responsibility.
September 3, 1947. A postal bomb addressed to the British War Office exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8)
December ll, 1947. Six Arabs were killed and 30 wounded when bombs were thrown from Jewish trucks at Arab buses in Haifa; 12 Arabs were killed and others injured in an attack by armed Zionists on an Arab coastal village near Haifa.
December 19, 1947. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blowing up two houses in the ruins of which were found the bodies of 10 Arabs, including 5 children. Haganah admitted responsibility for the attack.
December 13, 1947 -- February 10, 1948. Seven incidents of bomb-tossing at innocent Arab civilians in cafes and markets, killing 138 and wounding 271 others, During this period, there were 9 attacks on Arab buses. Zionists mined passenger trains on at least 4 occasions, killing 93 persons and wounding 161 others.
December 29, 1947. Two British constables and 11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs injured, at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi.
June 1947. Letters sent to British Cabinet Ministers were found to contain bombs.
December ll, 1947. Six Arabs were killed and 30 wounded when bombs were thrown from Jewish trucks at Arab buses in Haifa ; 12 Arabs were killed and others injured in an attack by armed Zionists on an Arab coastal village near Haifa.
December 29, 1947. Two British constables and 11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs injured, at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi.
January 5, 1948. The Arab-owned Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up, killing 20 persons.
January 7, 1948. Seventeen Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem, 3 of them while trying to escape. Further casualties, including the murder of a British officer near Hebron, were reported from different parts of the country.
January 16, 1948. Zionists blew up three Arab buildings. In the first, 8 children between the ages of 18 months and 12 years, died.
March 3, 1948. Heavy damage was done to the Arab-owned Salam building in Haifa by Zionists who drove an army lorry ( truck) up to the building and escaped before the detonation of 400 Ib. of explosives; casualties numbered 11 Arabs and 3 Armenians killed and 23 injured.
March 22, 1948. A housing block in Iraq Street in Haifa was blown up killing 17 and injuring 100 others. Four members of the Stern Gang drove two truck-loads of explosives into the street and abandoned the vehicles before the explosion.
March 31, 1948. The Cairo-Haifa Express was mined, for the second time in a month, by an electronically-detonated land mine near Benyamina, killing 40 persons and wounding 60 others.
April 9, 1948. A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children. Older men and young women were paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul.
April 16, 1948. Zionists attacked the former British army camp at Tel Litvinsky, killing 90 Arabs there.
April 19, 1948. Fourteen Arabs were killed in a house in Tiberias, which was blown up by Zionist terrorists.
May 3, 1948. A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.
May11, 1948. A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

What goes around comes around

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update---

Post #202

Post by justme2 »

Update-------
OCT. 2, 2018 4:16 P.M.
JERUSALEM (Ma'an) -- As Israel threatened to raid and demolish the Bedouin village of Khan al-Ahmar at any moment since the evacuation period ended, Israeli settlers stormed the village and flooded the area with wastewater, on Tuesday afternoon.
https://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=781301
.,.,.,.,.
Shad, my last update; just for you---
OCT. 3, 2018 11:48 A.M.
The Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza announced, on Wednesday, that 78-year-old Palestinian, Ibrahim Ahmad Nassar al-Arouqi, was shot and killed with two live bullets fired by Israeli forces on Tuesday.
https://www.maannews.com/Photos/486878C.jpg
According to the ministry, since "The Great March of Return" began on March 30th, 193 Palestinians were killed, including 34 children, and 21,150 Palestinians were injured, including 4,200 children and 1,950 women, of whom 5,300 were injured due to Israeli live ammunition, while 464 of the injured were in serious condition.
https://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=781307
.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.
May 15, 2018 12:58 AM
Mass Gaza Border Clashes: 58 Palestinians Killed by Israeli Gunfire, 1,113 Wounded
The Israeli army killed dozens of Palestinians at the Gaza border Monday as the Gazans’ six weeks of demonstrations — and attempts to breach the border fence — heightened to protest the U.S. Embassy's historic move to Jerusalem.
The Gaza Health Ministry said 58 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli gunfire Monday, making it the bloodiest day of the protests by far, as Israeli security officials had predicted.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-new ... mass-gaza-

border-clashes-52-killed-by-israeli-gunfire-2-410-wounded-1.6091548
Three Palestinians, including child, killed at Gaza borders
OCT. 6, 2018 11:02 A.M. (UPDATED: OCT. 6, 2018 3:37 P.M.)
GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- Three Palestinians were killed and dozens of others were injured, on Friday evening, as Israeli forces suppressed protests at the eastern borders of the besieged Gaza Strip.
The Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza confirmed that 12-year-old Fares Hafeth al-Sarsawi was shot and killed by Israeli forces in eastern Gaza City.
The ministry also confirmed that Akram Abu Samaan, 22, from the al-Shate refugee camp was killed, while Hussein Fathi al-Ruqab, 28, succumbed to wounds he sustained in eastern Khan Younis while at the Nasser Medical Center.
According to the ministry, 376 Palestinians sustained various injuries during the protests, 192 of whom were transferred to hospitals for treatment including 7 critical injuries.
A paramedic identified as Muhammad Abu Assi was also critically injured by Israeli live bullets in the chest in eastern Khan Younis.
The Israeli artillery also shelled a resistance point in the northern Gaza Strip.
No injuries were reported in the shelling.
Meanwhile, the Hamas movement said that the "practical" response to Israeli threats to "The Great March of Return" and breaking the siege protests is wide participation by Gazan crowds.
Spokesperson of the movement, Hazem Qassem, said "these crowds have made their decision that nothing would keep them from continuing these marches until their goals are achieved."
The National Committee for Breaking the Siege had called for Friday's protests under the slogan "Friday of Steadiness and Resilience."
Since the beginning of "The Great March of Return" on March 30th, thousands of Palestinian civilians in Gaza -- which has suffered from a decade-long Israeli siege -- have been protesting at the eastern borders of the besieged enclave to demand their right of return as refugees to their original homelands, now in present-day Israel
http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=781352

.,.,.,.,.,.
OCT. 2, 2018 4:16 P.M. (UPDATED: OCT. 4, 2018 11:11 A.M.)
JERUSALEM (Ma'an) -- As Israel threatened to raid and demolish the Bedouin village of Khan al-Ahmar at any moment since the evacuation period ended, Israeli settlers stormed the village and flooded the area with wastewater, on Tuesday afternoon.
Locals said that Israeli settlers from the nearby illegal Israeli settlement of Kfar Adummim stormed the village and were confronted by international and local activists along with residents of Khan al-Ahmar.
Israeli settlers managed to flood the area with wastewater before activists and residents were able to stop them.
https://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=781301
.,.,.,.,.
OCT. 3, 2018 11:48 A.M.
AZA CITY (Ma'an) -- A 78-year-old Palestinian was shot and killed by Israeli forces, on Tuesday, east of the al-Maghazi refugee camp in the central besieged Gaza Strip.
The Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza announced, on Wednesday, that 78-year-old Palestinian, Ibrahim Ahmad Nassar al-Arouqi, was shot and killed with two live bullets fired by Israeli forces on Tuesday.
According to the ministry, since "The Great March of Return" began on March 30th, 193 Palestinians were killed, including 34 children, and 21,150 Palestinians were injured, including 4,200 children and 1,950 women, of whom 5,300 were injured due to Israeli live ammunition, while 464 of the injured were in serious condition.

https://www.maannews.com/Photos/486878C.jpg

https://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=781307

.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.
May 15, 2018 12:58 AM
Mass Gaza Border Clashes: 58 Palestinians Killed by Israeli Gunfire, 1,113 Wounded
The Israeli army killed dozens of Palestinians at the Gaza border Monday as the Gazans’ six weeks of demonstrations — and attempts to breach the border fence — heightened to protest the U.S. Embassy's historic move to Jerusalem.
The Gaza Health Ministry said 58 Palestinians had been killed by Israeli gunfire Monday, making it the bloodiest day of the protests by far, as Israeli security officials had predicted.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-new ... -1.6091548

8-)

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Re: update---

Post #203

Post by marco »

justme2 wrote:

Update-------
All this one-sided reportage does not deal with Islamic terrorism. Another discussion is the plight of Israel now that Hamas has taken over in Palestine. You forgot to mention the custodian of antiquities in Palmyra, 81-year old Khaled al-Assad, who was beheaded and his body publicly displayed. In France 84-year old Father Jacques Hamel had his throat cut while saying mass. Are these related to 1947 and Israel's fight to be an independent state?

The discussion is about Islamic terrorism, the sort that enters an office and kills workers because of some perceived slight to a prophet. What can we do? Blame Israel and believe all that Hamas reports? That would help a lot.

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Re: update---

Post #204

Post by justme2 »

marco wrote: Update-------

All this one-sided reportage does not deal with Islamic terrorism. Another discussion is the plight of Israel now that Hamas has taken over in Palestine.
It is telling enough that you recognize the territory as "Palestine"; what else is there to say?

marco wrote:You forgot to mention the custodian of antiquities in Palmyra, 81-year old Khaled al-Assad, who was beheaded and his body publicly displayed.
Your talking ancient history; but having said that-----
Jewish Rabbi's forced the Romans to crucify Jesus

marco wrote: In France 84-year old Father Jacques Hamel had his throat cut while saying mass.
His throat was more than likely cut be a non-convert-able die-hard Zionist?
Are these related to 1947 and Israel's fight to be an independent state?
marco wrote:The discussion is about Islamic terrorism, the sort that enters an office and kills workers because of some perceived slight to a prophet. What can we do? Blame Israel and believe all that Hamas reports? That would help a lot.
Why not cut to the chase and blame those who are responsible instead-?

Just asking (:-

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Re: update---

Post #205

Post by marco »

justme2 wrote:

Jewish Rabbi's forced the Romans to crucify Jesus

That is Christian propaganda. All Jews apparently called down a curse on their kids. As if!

marco wrote: In France 84-year old Father Jacques Hamel had his throat cut while saying mass.
justme2 wrote:
His throat was more than likely cut be a non-convert-able die-hard Zionist?
I was dealing with fact, not Hansel and Gretel.

Burns said:


O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!


It would be nice if some Power endowed us with the gift to see ourselves as we are seen by others...... be we Jew, Palestinian, Muslim, Christian or atheist. But I suppose its possession would make little difference to many.

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Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Post #206

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marco wrote: And so beautiful Barcelona joins the list of cities terrorists have attacked. I don't doubt that there are those who will say America and the West are responsible. One of the terrorists apparently wrote of his desire to kill infidels.

I was in Madrid a few weeks ago and had intended to revisit Barcelona and its busy street, Las Ramblas, where the atrocities occurred. So terror is just a breath away, at least here in Europe.

Is it possible for those who want to kill to be educated if not by impious Westerners by Imams? Are those who want to kill "infidels" already known in their home circles? Obviously the scale of this lunacy will grow and we will hear on our screens the fatuous: "They will not win." But they do.

What can we do to ensure "they will not win"? Should the world convert to Islam, at least nominally?
Ahh yes. The age old conundrum. Comon man. You sound like all Muslims are out to get you.

Do not realize how backwards terrorist organization are? They do not have state of the art weapons and nuclear arsenal... They represent a tiny fraction of global Muslims (1.5 billion of us). They are politically motivated - all issues can always be traced back to politics. They USE RELIGION to brainwash the uneducated and poor, and since people are usually fired up for political reasons, its not a hard task. It's a shame really.

Muslims speak out against these groups but they are not heard. Muslims petition and scholars release fatwas (decrees) against joining such groups but they are not heard about in western media. Muslim countries are currently at war with certain groups like ISIS but even that's not heard about. You just have to look if you want to find the truth.

Billions of dollars worth of oil is pumped out and sold by ISIS from oil rigs that they've hijacked. I wonder who's buying all that oil dirt cheap? There is always a political reason behind religious brainwashing done the way its done today. Look at the crusades, the Christians butchered Muslims believing it was the work of God at one point in time. Religion was used for a political agenda. It is not the religions fault if it clearly states not to kill innocent people, yourself, destroy historical artifacts, torture, steal, rape and all the crimes these groups commit. It is so unbelievably un-Islamic we totally don't support it so I wouldn't worry about it too much. The world would not allow for such an evil force to subsist.

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Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Post #207

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Abdelrahman wrote:
Ahh yes. The age old conundrum. Comon man. You sound like all Muslims are out to get you.

Do not realize how backwards terrorist organization are? [/quote]


I take your point and I am impressed by the way you express your views. I have Muslim friends. I do not uphold what is written in the Old Testament about God, and his appearance in the Koran does not fill me with reverence. Why would an intelligent being want to burn the skins of those who have misbehaved, and then burn them again for eternity? Why would a God tell husbands to beat disobedient wives?

Yes, I've had these conversations with my friends and they remain in the Shi'ite or Sunni persuasions. But I agree that terrorists are a small sample of a peaceful group; I don't agree with many Christians, but they are not a threat either.

I was inviting thoughts of cooperation - putting beliefs aside and acting as brothers. If you extract nice ideas from your holy book, good and well. Others don't. We need dialogue, not 7th century texts. Surely people can think for themselves without consulting ancient writings for their modus vivendi. Go well.

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Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Post #208

Post by Abdelrahman »

marco wrote:
Abdelrahman wrote:
Ahh yes. The age old conundrum. Comon man. You sound like all Muslims are out to get you.

Do not realize how backwards terrorist organization are?

I take your point and I am impressed by the way you express your views. I have Muslim friends. I do not uphold what is written in the Old Testament about God, and his appearance in the Koran does not fill me with reverence. Why would an intelligent being want to burn the skins of those who have misbehaved, and then burn them again for eternity? Why would a God tell husbands to beat disobedient wives?

Yes, I've had these conversations with my friends and they remain in the Shi'ite or Sunni persuasions. But I agree that terrorists are a small sample of a peaceful group; I don't agree with many Christians, but they are not a threat either.

I was inviting thoughts of cooperation - putting beliefs aside and acting as brothers. If you extract nice ideas from your holy book, good and well. Others don't. We need dialogue, not 7th century texts. Surely people can think for themselves without consulting ancient writings for their modus vivendi. Go well.[/quote]

Thanks! It is a good question you pose. Why does hell exist? Why so severe in punishment? It sounds crazy that there is an infinite time period to come and even crazier to think that there could be so much punishment. But there are reasons why we believe such a place to exist. I am not a Muslim because I rationalized God's existence on my own doing, humanity has consistently received prophets and scriptures that have always warned of the reality of Hell. I believe in Hell because I believe the Qur'an to have divine authorship that could not have been written by man. I also believe that Jesus was a real human, and so was Moses and Noah. There is now scientific evidence of a global flood that happened and im not talking about christian scientists, these are nonreligious men. Look up Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson - great podcast of them up with Joe Rogan I highly recommend. I can prove to you, maybe in a seperate topic, how the Qur'an could not have been authored by man.

God doesn't tell us to beat our wives. That is a topic that Muslims have already resolved and defined. Woman are distinguised in Islam. We are told that heaven is at your mothers feet. Islam gave woman the right to vote, to educate hundreds of years before modern civilization did. Islam gave us the law to vote for our leaders. Islam taught man not to harm animals. Not to harm our children.

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: "Among the Muslims the most perfect as regards to his faith is the one whose character is most excellent and the best among you are those that treat their wives well" [Muslim]

We are told the best among us are those that treat our wives the best. I don't think beating her is included lol.

And yes your right! We need thinkers. Education, reformation. HOWEVER... fundamentalism is NOT backwards in Islam. It is Muslims reading their ancient text and UNDERSTANDING it is what we need more of, so that they are not fooled into something stupid. People are going to stick to the religion regardless, so may as well educate them on what it actually teaches.

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Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Post #209

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Abdelrahman wrote:


The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: "Among the Muslims the most perfect as regards to his faith is the one whose character is most excellent and the best among you are those that treat their wives well"

We are told the best among us are those that treat our wives the best. I don't think beating her is included lol.
I wonder what you do when one part of the Koran contradicts another. I believe there's a method for recognising Allah changed his instructions. In any event the passage I was referring to, in the Koran, is: 4:34

The instruction is to send disobedient wives away to their rooms, deny them sexual courtesies perhaps, then if disobedience continues, the husband must beat the wife. I suppose that the view would be that she would be a better wife after a beating.

You are persuaded the Koran is God's prescription - I wonder how we can convince ourselves of that. Are we such excellent judges of literary dialogue that we can tell God's work? And if we accept this book is God's book and in it we find some instruction about unbelievers, then this gives terrorism its excuse. The fault perhaps is in ascribing some text to a divinity. One can understand rough Arab fighters of the 7th century may have been impressed by "Paradise contains rivers of pure honey, milk, and non-intoxicating wine, different from the wine of this world, and other everlasting enjoyments." And especially by the green couches and their contents. To modern sophistication this is childish rubbish. And yet it is quoted as if it came from the mouth of God. Believe this and you open the gates for anything.

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Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Post #210

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marco wrote: I wonder what you do when one part of the Koran contradicts another.
Bring thy evidence squire!
marco wrote: I believe there's a method for recognising Allah changed his instructions.
Do tell...
marco wrote: In any event the passage I was referring to, in the Koran, is: 4:34

The instruction is to send disobedient wives away to their rooms, deny them sexual courtesies perhaps, then if disobedience continues, the husband must beat the wife. I suppose that the view would be that she would be a better wife after a beating.
Listen man. I'll tell you how Islam works lol. If EVERYTHING in the religion points to how much respect you must give the woman around you, then you can't translate that verse to mean 'beat' as that would contradict the whole essence of Islam. I grew up in the Middle-East, been Muslim for 28 years, never seen anyone beat their wife citing Islam or not citing Islam for that matter. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen but those people are contradicting the religion when they do since its very clear.

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) even spoke about wife beating, something that was common during those violent times in Arabia, and limited it. He said those who strike their wives "are not the best among you." The Prophet (pbuh) himself never beat his wives and he is meant to be an example for humankind. He taught us not to verbally abuse your wife so how would he teach us to beat them? It is important to note, that when there are hadiths like this condemning beating over and over, people can't translate the word as 'beat', as seen in this hadith:

“Fear Allah concerning women! Verily you have taken them on the security of Allah… You too have rights over them, and that they should not allow anyone to sit on your bed whom you do not like. But if they do that, you can chastise them but not severely.� [Sahih Muslim]

The same word for strike is translated by hadith scholars as 'chastise', meaning to rebuke. The exact same word. So Islamic scholars have determined that it is a symbolic gesture. I'm sure if most men walk into a room with their wives sitting in bed with another man, they don't think and in many cases it leads to physical violence. We are told to remain patient and chastise. And if the relationship isn't going anywhere, guess what Islam allows? Divorce.

So you gotta take the whole picture into context. It doesn't make sense for us to beat our wives, when we are instructed not to even kill trees during wartime. Not to disturb baby birds in their nests and be abusive to animals, yet we are taught to beat our women. It doesn't make sense. The Prophet (pbuh) rallied for woman at a time when female babies were born alive out of shame of having a female child.

"And when the girl [who was] buried alive is asked. For what sin she was killed." - The Holy Qur'an [81:8-9]

He prevented such causes. Told men to stop treating women harshly. Told them to fear God with regards to how you treat women. I can keep going, over and over how much respect we are meant to give our women.
marco wrote: You are persuaded the Koran is God's prescription - I wonder how we can convince ourselves of that. Are we such excellent judges of literary dialogue that we can tell God's work? And if we accept this book is God's book and in it we find some instruction about unbelievers, then this gives terrorism its excuse. The fault perhaps is in ascribing some text to a divinity.
Well it is interesting to note two things. We believe the Qur'an to be God's very words and so God challenges us in the Qur'an to produce a text like it. God challenges us to think, ponder and relfect on its verses. The Qur'an is a book of 'signs' for Gods existence. God will talk of creation and the natural world, proving beyond a doubt, that the text is inspired and not the work of an illiterate man 1400 years ago. For example, one such verse is:

"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?" - The Holy Qur'an [21:30]

We need not be literary experts, but we do know a thing or two about science. And to make such a statement in the middle of the desert, that every living thing is made of water is a big risk to take. And then that space and earth were once a connected entity.. these are things that we are only discovering now.

"And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander." - The Holy Qur'an [51:47]

God says space is expanding. The universe is expanding. What a statement to make 1400 years ago. I can go on and on. God even says in the Qur'an:

"Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction." - The Holy Qur'an [4:82]

God speaks of nature and we find no contraduction with modern science. No contradictions within the text itself and it challenges us to find them. This is what I love about Islam. We are challenged to think.

The second thing I wanted to say was that the Arabs of Arabia who were used to worshipping idols, were experts of literary Arabic. Much of modern Arabic grammar and works come from those times. They were not scientifically adept like we are today so they didn't see the magnificence of these scientific references but instead it was the arabic itself that blew their minds. When Islam started out, only the poor and slaves followed the Prophet (pbuh) and they practiced in secret, many of them converted just from hearing the arabic. Some accused him of being a magician, others a mad man, but the Qur'an's arabic is a very powerful work of literacy. So this is why God sends signs to the right people. Since they were pros at arabic He sent them something to challenge what they knew and that was enough for many of them. Today since we believe the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be the last Prophet of God, His 'sign' or 'miracle' was the Qur'an and people will see its significance for the rest of time, hence why even in the information age, we can see its significance.
marco wrote: One can understand rough Arab fighters of the 7th century may have been impressed by "Paradise contains rivers of pure honey, milk, and non-intoxicating wine, different from the wine of this world, and other everlasting enjoyments." And especially by the green couches and their contents. To modern sophistication this is childish rubbish. And yet it is quoted as if it came from the mouth of God. Believe this and you open the gates for anything.
Haha our description of heaven is very sophisticated. We are told it contains what no man has seen, heard or even imagined. So whatever it is that you have seen in your life in sophistication, we believe heaven is beyond your wildest dreams. We have so many descriptions, just a simple google search would show you its many wonders.

Of course belief in heaven is mediated by belief in the revelation being divine. I'm willing to debate anyone on that topic!

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