Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Current issues and things in the news

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Post #1

Post by marco »

And so beautiful Barcelona joins the list of cities terrorists have attacked. I don't doubt that there are those who will say America and the West are responsible. One of the terrorists apparently wrote of his desire to kill infidels.

I was in Madrid a few weeks ago and had intended to revisit Barcelona and its busy street, Las Ramblas, where the atrocities occurred. So terror is just a breath away, at least here in Europe.

Is it possible for those who want to kill to be educated if not by impious Westerners by Imams? Are those who want to kill "infidels" already known in their home circles? Obviously the scale of this lunacy will grow and we will hear on our screens the fatuous: "They will not win." But they do.

What can we do to ensure "they will not win"? Should the world convert to Islam, at least nominally?

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Post #211

Post by marco »

Abdelrahman wrote:
It is important to note, that when there are hadiths like this condemning beating over and over, people can't translate the word as 'beat', as seen in this hadith:
Then the emphasis is on CONTROL. The point is: would the Maker of Galaxies tell men to control their wives? The steps involve a reprimand first and sending wives to their rooms; THEN comes further action, which is hardly another reprimand. I suppose if one has enough faith one can believe a crocodile is a horse. I have been told a light stroke with a tooth brush would qualify as "beating". Lovely.

There is no point extracting kindness from somewhere and overwriting harshness with this elsewhere. One is constantly told Allah is merciful - I assume this is ironic - and then we get details of his love of torture. But again we can say that torture is kindness.



Well it is interesting to note two things. We believe the Qur'an to be God's very words and so God challenges us in the Qur'an to produce a text like it. God challenges us to think, ponder and relfect on its verses. The Qur'an is a book of 'signs' for Gods existence. God will talk of creation and the natural world, proving beyond a doubt, that the text is inspired and not the work of an illiterate man 1400 years ago.

Muhammad's learned scribes put into writing his badly digested tales and imaginings. No one is saying that he wrote anything. It takes amazing faith to read the stuff and pronounce it so well written, excelling Shakespeare, that it wasn't penned by human hands. In a sense things were made from water and without water was made nothing that is made; water to a desert dweller is the stuff of gods. Perhaps we should credit Lucretius, who wrote about atoms and the void in his "De Rerum Natura" hundreds of years earlier with a spark of divinity. It is amusing that when we see something that has a scratch of scientific significance, either in the Bible or the Koran, we see God's fingerprints. Similarly we can look at the complex structure of the eye and deduce God's handiwork. Faith is an amazing human characteristic, whether it belongs to primitive cave dwellers,builders of early cities or to citizens of the present age. It can construct and it can kill.

They were not scientifically adept like we are today so they didn't see the magnificence of these scientific references but instead it was the arabic itself that blew their minds.
Yesterday Muhammad and his friends robbed caravans; tomorrow they are theologians, detecting God in the impeccable Arabic of some learned scribes. Ergo God exists. That's a novel proof Aquinas didn't think of.

Haha our description of heaven is very sophisticated.
Your description may be, but the Koranic one isn't too sophisticated. It is written to please red-blooded men. I understand unbelievers get dirty water - water being all important to desert folk, and presumably no pomegranates. In Greek mythology it was a pomegranate seed that kept poor Persephone captive. How would the crafty Muhammad persuade his rough followers? By offering post mortem sexual favours in heaven! The most risible detail is not that the maidens are constantly recurring virgins but that they sit of GREEN couches in paradise.
O sancta simplicitas.

But if such tales lead one to offer money to the poor and feed the needy, then who can argue? Meanwhile the terrorists we are talking about also draw inspiration from such silly promises, as Muhammad intended.

koko

Post #212

Post by koko »

There has always been an answer, a solution to the problem of Islamic terrorism. All we need to do is to stop, prevent, and compensate victims of, Western imperialism. Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and others did not or would not exist if it were not for the imperialistic terrorism, genocide, and exploitation committed by Westerners. Modern history is full of examples of invasions of North African and Middle Eastern countries by Western powers. Examples include France invading Morocco and Algeria, Italy invading Ethiopia, Somalia, and Libya, Britain invading Egypt, Iraq, and Iran, Russian invasions of the Caucasus, and there is the utterly pathetic example of USA Hitlerian activities in the region. These imperialistic terrorists killed hundreds of thousands of people, destroyed their economies, and stolen untold billions in resources. To this day they have not compensated those lands for the depredations imposed on those innocents.

When Hitler invaded France, hundreds of thousands of Algerians volunteered to assist the French in repelling the invasion. Immediately after WW II, France invaded Algeria and killed hundreds of thousands of Algerians. Nobody volunteered to help Algeria to repel the imperialists.

Over the decades frustration and anger has been boiling over in these victimized lands because of the genocide and depredations imposed by the invaders. Ironically those invaders all claim to be good Christians who were supposedly doing all this as a great favor to their victims. Is it any wonder why groups have arisen to fight off the genocidal maniacs of the West?

Again, the answer to the OP topic is and has always been there - the West needs to withdraw its agents of hate and genocide. It needs to compensate the victims of these depredations. And it needs to insure that there will be no further acts of imperialism in lands inhabited by Muslims.

The bottom line is the old idea that for every cause there is an effect. Islamic terrorism is that effect which was caused by Western imperialism and its many depredations. Now, I realize it is not fashionable nor politically correct to say this. But it is an incontrovetible fact whether anyone chooses to believe it or not.

Abdelrahman
Student
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:36 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Post #213

Post by Abdelrahman »

Then the emphasis is on CONTROL. The point is: would the Maker of Galaxies tell men to control their wives? The steps involve a reprimand first and sending wives to their rooms; THEN comes further action, which is hardly another reprimand. I suppose if one has enough faith one can believe a crocodile is a horse. I have been told a light stroke with a tooth brush would qualify as "beating". Lovely.
No its not on control either. The emphasis being made is that men are responsible for spending on their families, if they are the main bread earners for the family. You must understand that rules like this were revealed to give protective rights to a woman and her family. A man, who was the main bread earner at the time, was responsible for spending on his family. Any money the woman earned was kept for herself..

This does not mean that a woman can't work. The Prophet's (pbuh) first wife was a business woman. This verse only came down to explain the financial rights on the bread winner. This is not the view of 2% of Muslims, this is the vast majority.

The Prophet (pbuh) taught us not to beat woman or even verbally abuse them. He gave them the right to divorce out of abusive relationships. He gave them the right to keep their names on marriage. So much 1400 years ago. It was only 100 years ago that western civilization was debating whether or not a woman was a human and could vote. Muslim woman were given the right to vote, teach, work freely 1400 years ago.

Modern society is still struggling with womans rights in the workplace with unequal pay to men. In Islam, a worker must be paid his/her dues before their sweat dries from their work. Fair and equal pay to both genders. 1400 years ago.
There is no point extracting kindness from somewhere and overwriting harshness with this elsewhere. One is constantly told Allah is merciful - I assume this is ironic - and then we get details of his love of torture. But again we can say that torture is kindness.
It is not harshness when you take into context what the Prophet (pbuh) taught us and what the verse actually says. Muslims simply don't derive meaning from the book the way you do, we don't just read a sentence and close the book. We look at the explanation offered by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for each verse. Remember, the Qur'an was revealed over a period of about 23 years, piece by piece. So each verse refers to a specific event, the Prophet (pbuh) would explain certain verses. We do not leave the religion to men who claim to have Godly knowledge, I don't confess my sins to man, and their interpretations when it comes to major concepts. We derive all of the major concepts from the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions and what they taught us.

So by quoting the one verse and not taking the true meaning and context of it all, you are committing the same illogical propaganda that ISIS uses to recruit its uneducated followers. Mainstream Islam simply isn't practiced the way you insist.
Muhammad's learned scribes put into writing his badly digested tales and imaginings. No one is saying that he wrote anything. It takes amazing faith to read the stuff and pronounce it so well written, excelling Shakespeare, that it wasn't penned by human hands. In a sense things were made from water and without water was made nothing that is made; water to a desert dweller is the stuff of gods. Perhaps we should credit Lucretius, who wrote about atoms and the void in his "De Rerum Natura" hundreds of years earlier with a spark of divinity. It is amusing that when we see something that has a scratch of scientific significance, either in the Bible or the Koran, we see God's fingerprints. Similarly we can look at the complex structure of the eye and deduce God's handiwork. Faith is an amazing human characteristic, whether it belongs to primitive cave dwellers,builders of early cities or to citizens of the present age. It can construct and it can kill.
Water is the stuff of gods to a desert dweller, and yet, he could have been wrong but he wasn't. The atom is not what I'm focused on. We already know that the simplest concept of the atom had already existed, im talking about when the Qur'an makes reference to "what's smaller than that". Another small inference that could have been wrong. They just keep piling on and on. I challenge someone to find me a verse in the Qur'an, where God is talking about the natural world and challenging us to think about it, and it contradicts modern scientific understanding. You simply won't find it.

Here is another thing in the Qur'an:

"You see the mountains and think they are firmly fixed. But they pass away just as the clouds pass away. Such is the artistry of Allah, Who disposes of all things in perfect order" - The Holy Qur'an [27:88]

Mountains are not permanent. They move, very very slowly, just like the clouds who you may at times think are fixed in the sky. How does one guess at this and get it right?

When describing the darkness of ignorance of God and comparing it to the depths of the ocean, the Qur'an says:

"It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darkness, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it. And he for whom Allah has not appointed light, for him there is no light." - The Holy Qur'an [24:40]

Not only has man never dived deep enough to not be able see his hands stretched out in front of him in pitch black, the Qur'an described the deep ocean as containing waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. The word above, means literally on top of. We have only discovered the oceans internal waves with modern technology.

Every time, God makes reference to nature and makes a parable of it, it coincides with modern scientific understanding.

"And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you, and streams and roads that you may find a way." - The Holy Qur'an [16:15]

Indicates that mountains have a part to play in plate tectonics. That the stabilization of the crust results in the formation of mountains. Very interesting. Another guess?

"Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs?" - The Holy Qur'an [78:6-7]

Pegs/stakes whatever you want to call them. Something that is driven into the ground. With part of it on top of the surface and part of it below. We have only discovered mountain roots with modern technology. How does a man 1400 years ago know enough about geology to make such claims?
Your description may be, but the Koranic one isn't too sophisticated. It is written to please red-blooded men. I understand unbelievers get dirty water - water being all important to desert folk, and presumably no pomegranates. In Greek mythology it was a pomegranate seed that kept poor Persephone captive. How would the crafty Muhammad persuade his rough followers? By offering post mortem sexual favours in heaven! The most risible detail is not that the maidens are constantly recurring virgins but that they sit of GREEN couches in paradise.
O sancta simplicitas.
The Qur'anic one speaks of couches reclined floating in space, one on top of the other yes. It also speaks of green silk clothing yes. But if you go into the hadiths you hear about giant gold trees, fruits no eye has ever seen. And yes, people will be having sex, can't leave that one out.

See heaven is meant to be a reward for all the good you've done in this life. People are drinking alcohol that leaves no hangover, having the time of their lives. That's the basic jist of it. But let's stick to the point here. I believe in such a world because the Qur'an and the Prophet (pbuh) both make miraculous claims about all the other religions and about the natural world, they make predictions that have come to pass.

�I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He.� - [John 13:19]

Prophecies to prove the existence of a Creator outside of time is nothing new. Here is an example of one from the Qur'an:

"The Byzantines have been defeated, In the nearest land. But they, after their defeat, will overcome. Within three to nine years. To Allah belongs the command before and after. And that day the believers will rejoice. In the victory of Allah . He gives victory to whom He wills, and He is the Exalted in Might, the Merciful." - The Holy Qur'an [30:2-4]

The Romans and the Persian were the two super powers of the day when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was preaching his message.

In 614, the Persians had conquerred Syria and Palestine (taking Jerusalem) and they had destroyed the "True Cross". Then in 619 they took over Libya and Egypt. Heraclius of the Roman empire met the Persians at Thracian Heraclea and they tried to catch him, pursuing him as he retreated to Constantinople.

The Muslims at the time were saddened by the news since the Christian Romans were spiritually closer in essence to the Muslim believers than the Zoroastrian Persians. In response, this verse was revealed stating that they will overcome the Persians within 3 to 9 years.

In 627 Heraclius met the Persians in battle near Nineveh. One month later he entered Dastagird with its treasure. Khosrow was overthrown by his son, who made peace with Heraclius and Heraclius returned home hailed as a hero. As you can see, this was 8 years later. These verses were revealed before the event in question, it was a prediction made at a time when everyone thought the Romans were losing. God reassured the believers that they would rejoice at the Romans beating the Persians.
But if such tales lead one to offer money to the poor and feed the needy, then who can argue? Meanwhile the terrorists we are talking about also draw inspiration from such silly promises, as Muhammad intended.
To what gain? What did Muhammad (pbuh) gain from such promises made to men? Most major conquests of war happened after his death, he spent many days as leader hungry. He slept on a very simple bed that left a mark on him when he woke up. You could not sleep and pray in his room at the same time. He by no means horded wealth and treasure. He asked nothing of the people, and was attacked and ridiculed for prophesing Pprophethood (pbuh). When he would pray people would dump animal intestines on him, people pelted him with rocks. Yet, he kept preaching. His own family and tribe was against him, it practically split up his city. Why would a man do so much and ask nothing but state:

"Say, "I hold not for myself [the power of] benefit or harm, except what Allah has willed. And if I knew the unseen, I could have acquired much wealth, and no harm would have touched me. I am not except a warner and a bringer of good tidings to a people who believe." - The Holy Qur'an [7:188]

Abdelrahman
Student
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:36 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Post #214

Post by Abdelrahman »

[Replying to post 212 by koko]

Right on point. Obviously, the terrorists are still wrong for prophesing the work of God. For tainting religion with their evil blood. But the cause of such groups, can always be traced back to politics. Otherwise if it can be traced back to the religion, all 1.5 billion of us would be out killing everyone - and we aren't lol.

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #215

Post by marco »

koko wrote:
Again, the answer to the OP topic is and has always been there - the West needs to withdraw its agents of hate and genocide. It needs to compensate the victims of these depredations. And it needs to insure that there will be no further acts of imperialism in lands inhabited by Muslims.
A beautifully objective view! You realise the lands occupied by Muslims were once lands occupied by Christians. Through the centuries there have been wars, victors and victims. I don't for a minute think the thugs who holler Allah Akbar know much about Lepanto. But it is creditable to see the point of view of those who burn folk alive and teach children the appropriate way to decapitate. At least the West has gifted them mobile phones with which to detonate bombs, so we have not been entirely selfish.
The bottom line is the old idea that for every cause there is an effect. Islamic terrorism is that effect which was caused by Western imperialism and its many depredations. Now, I realize it is not fashionable nor politically correct to say this. But it is an incontrovertible fact whether anyone chooses to believe it or not.
Of course there is cause and effect all over the globe as we are discovering with plastic. Islamic terrorism has many causes, and you've traced one, the enmity between Christian lands and Muslim lands. Wars were fought in the past with faults on both sides. Your "incontrovertible fact" is neither fact nor incontrovertible; there are deeper issues than your simplistic summary suggests. You know of course that Muslim kill Muslims, the debate there being about who succeeded Muhammad, very relevant in the 21st century.

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism?

Post #216

Post by marco »

Abdelrahman wrote:

No its not on control either. The emphasis being made is that men are responsible for spending on their families, if they are the main bread earners for the family. You must understand that rules like this were revealed to give protective rights to a woman and her family. A man, who was the main bread earner at the time, was responsible for spending on his family. Any money the woman earned was kept for herself..
Reminder: we live in the 21st century. As for your reading of "beating wives" it is not so much an interpretation but a re-writing of Muhammad's dictation.

It was only 100 years ago that western civilization was debating whether or not a woman was a human and could vote. Muslim woman were given the right to vote, teach, work freely 1400 years ago.
I cannot believe you are comparing 7th century brutal customs with those of 20th century. Muhammad seized woman slaves and made them his concubines. Today some Muslim countries have women as second class citizens, and stoning is still in evidence, so let's not claim the moral high ground for Islam.


We derive all of the major concepts from the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions and what they taught us.
And this is the problem, importing the mores of savages into modern living. I admire Muhammad as a fine warrior, and an efficient leader who got booty and distributed it to his men unselfishly. His first wife, a shrewd lady, gave him the idea to ascribe his cave meetings to some divinity. Annexing bits of Judaism and Christianity that suited his purpose was a master-stroke. So yes, Muhammad was an excellent leader and politician. His night journey to heaven to replicate Abraham's bargaining with God is wonderful and no doubt impressed his ruffians. But Christians have equally odd beliefs so one cannot smirk.


I challenge someone to find me a verse in the Qur'an, where God is talking about the natural world and challenging us to think about it, and it contradicts modern scientific understanding. You simply won't find it.
How would you know? Anyway the Koran and Bible are holy books meant to be instructions about how to live morally, with tales thrown in to interest readers. They are not science text books. It is amusing that some folk want to find scientific fact in the Koran. God had enough to do arming birds with stones at the Battle of Badr, if I recall correctly. But I respect your admiration for the book. Christians likewise find astonishing revelations in their Bible. Look long enough....


To Allah belongs the command before and after. And that day the believers will rejoice. In the victory of Allah . He gives victory to whom He wills, and He is the Exalted in Might, the Merciful." - The Holy Qur'an [30:2-4]
I can understand WHY Muhammad would concentrate on BATTLES and get God involved, as if heaven were a military unit. But to modern ears, having God talk of some skirmish somewhere seems silly. It does not lead one to respecct what is written.
The Romans and the Persian were the two super powers of the day when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was preaching his message.
Rome had fallen 200 years before and it was in its final years of decay; the Persian Empire likewise was ripe for plucking. Muhammad happened along at the right time. Lucky man.

But you know if somebody sees Muhammad as God's ambassador or Jesus as a god there is nothing that argument can do, Believe these things and you can take the word "beat" and make it sound like "love".

But it's nice to converse with you. I managed to escape from my geography and theology where once I might have died for Jesus. The OP is about dying for Allah, however unwillingly.

koko

Post #217

Post by koko »

marco wrote:


A beautifully objective view! You realise the lands occupied by Muslims were once lands occupied by Christians. Through the centuries there have been wars, victors and victims. I don't for a minute think the thugs who holler Allah Akbar know much about Lepanto. But it is creditable to see the point of view of those who burn folk alive and teach children the appropriate way to decapitate. At least the West has gifted them mobile phones with which to detonate bombs, so we have not been entirely selfish.



Of course there is cause and effect all over the globe as we are discovering with plastic. Islamic terrorism has many causes, and you've traced one, the enmity between Christian lands and Muslim lands. Wars were fought in the past with faults on both sides. Your "incontrovertible fact" is neither fact nor incontrovertible; there are deeper issues than your simplistic summary suggests. You know of course that Muslim kill Muslims, the debate there being about who succeeded Muhammad, very relevant in the 21st century.





~ lands occupied by Muslims were once lands occupied by Christians ~

Lands occupied by Christians were once occupied by pagans who fell by "Christian" swords. Nowhere in the New Testament is it taught that you may forcibly convert anyone by threats and death.


~ burn folk alive and teach children the appropriate way to decapitate ~


No one has done that more than have professing Christians. As for teaching children to hate and to commit violence, see this:


https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/al ... i-children



~ Wars were fought in the past with faults on both sides. ~


That much is true. But when in the past 200 years have Muslim countries invaded foreign lands in order to annex them or to steal their resources? In that time frame, did Algeria and Morocco invade France? Did Ethiopia and Libya invade Italy? Did the Caucasian lands invade Russia? Did Iran and Iraq invade the USA?

For example, what enmity existed between Americans and Iranians or Iraqis? As a Yank I sure as heck had no such enmity for those people. Did you? No American ever did but wealthy elitists had an interest in stealing their oil and lining their pockets with stolen capital. That is why there is a conflict between the imperialistic government of the USA and them.



~ Muslims kill Muslims ~

True, but that is no excuse for the USA invading those lands. After all, Christians kill Christians and no Muslim country ever used that as an excuse to invade anyone else.


~ Deeper issues ~

None deeper than the continued colonialist terrorism committed by the imperialistic West. It is the imperialistic West that is occupying Muslim lands, killing people, and stealing their resources. Not the other way around. Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism? Of course there is ~ stop Western imperialistic terrorism and the problem will be solved overnight.

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #218

Post by marco »

koko wrote:
~ lands occupied by Muslims were once lands occupied by Christians ~

Lands occupied by Christians were once occupied by pagans who fell by "Christian" swords. Nowhere in the New Testament is it taught that you may forcibly convert anyone by threats and death.
You are straying from the original point which was that Christians occupied Muslim lands to which the observation that Muslims displaced Christians is relevant. Earlier Pagan occupation has nothing to do with Christian-Muslim hostility. As for your biblical point, the Israelites, encouraged by God, forcibly seized lands.

No one has done that more than have professing Christians. As for teaching children to hate and to commit violence, see this:


https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/al ... i-children
I assume this is a jocular insertion from a rather biased source. You do know that those opposing Israel build rocket bases under schools for the obvious propaganda reasons. Israel gives three separate warnings before attacking rocket sites and yet the civilian people are often prevented by Hamas from moving away. Good propaganda again.
But when in the past 200 years have Muslim countries invaded foreign lands in order to annex them or to steal their resources? In that time frame, did Algeria and Morocco invade France? Did Ethiopia and Libya invade Italy? Did the Caucasian lands invade Russia? Did Iran and Iraq invade the USA?
Let's see - we have a wide choice:

Muslim Indonesia against Christian East Timor
Muslim Northern Sudan against Christian South
Turkey notoriously massacred nearly 2 million Armenians and of course it occupied part of Cyprus.
Muslim aggression in Northern Nigeria against Christian South.

And the terrorist organisations that flower in the Middle East are Muslim
"Muslims kill Muslims"

True, but that is no excuse for the USA invading those lands. After all, Christians kill Christians and no Muslim country ever used that as an excuse to invade anyone else.
Nobody has forwarded that as a reason for anything; I mentioned it because your argument seemed to be that only Christians kill Muslims.
None deeper than the continued colonialist terrorism committed by the imperialistic West.
There are positives and negatives to imperialism. Many African countries gained their "freedom" and some that were thriving are now reduced to abject poverty. There are things worse than "imperialism."
Is there an answer to Islamic terrorism? Of course there is ~ stop Western imperialistic terrorism and the problem will be solved overnight
.

And do thugs, murderers, children killers and uncultured superstitious brutes respond to anything? Perhaps we should give terrorists more cake? The common factor in terrorist attacks is that the perpetrators are Muslim and they invariably praise Allah after their lethal exercise. It is right to examine our own present day culpability but we have grown out of our dark burnings of centuries ago. Where your saintly victims would happily throw homosexuals from high buildings, we have introduced legislation that accepts people are people. At some point we require not just condemnation for terrorist acts but appropriate solutions. Saying a confiteor is hardly an answer.

koko

Post #219

Post by koko »

But when in the past 200 years have Muslim countries invaded foreign lands in order to annex them or to steal their resources? In that time frame, did Algeria and Morocco invade France? Did Ethiopia and Libya invade Italy? Did the Caucasian lands invade Russia? Did Iran and Iraq invade the USA?


Let's see - we have a wide choice:

Muslim Indonesia against Christian East Timor
Muslim Northern Sudan against Christian South
Turkey notoriously massacred nearly 2 million Armenians and of course it occupied part of Cyprus.
Muslim aggression in Northern Nigeria against Christian South.

And the terrorist organisations that flower in the Middle East are Muslim


The examples you gave are of internecine conflict, not of foreign invasions. For example, Indonesia did attack East Timor which had a communist rebellion led by the leftist Freitlin. Indonesia's attack was supported and financed by Republican Christian Gerald Ford and by Israel. Freitlin was supported by the Soviet Union & Cuba.

Note that Suharto was a Muslim who persecuted Muslims while employing Christian generals in his wars:



Under Suharto political Islamists were suppressed, and religious Muslims carefully watched by the Indonesian government. Several Christian Generals who served under Suharto like Leonardus Benjamin Moerdani actively persecuted religious Muslims in the Indonesian military, which was described as being "anti-Islamic", denying religious Muslims promotions, and preventing them from praying in the barracks and banning them from even using the Islamic greeting "Salaam Aleikum", and these anti-Islamic policies were entirely supported by Suharto, despite Suharto being a Muslim himself, since he considered political Islam a threat to his power.[26][27][28][29] The Christian General Theo Syafei, who also served under Suharto, spoke out against political Islam coming to power in Indonesia, and insulted the Qur'an and Islam in remarks which were described as Islamophobic.[30][31][32][33][34][35]

source: Wiki


Because of this, the invasion could not be rightfully called a Muslim invasion of a Christian nation as the latter sought to secede from that particular union.



Secession/ethnic cleansing were issues in the other conflicts such as Turkey/Armenia, Sudan, and Nigeria. By the way, in Africa, many more people were killed in the Hutu/Tsutsi conflict with both groups claiming to be Christian.

koko

Post #220

Post by koko »

There are positives and negatives to imperialism. Many African countries gained their "freedom" and some that were thriving are now reduced to abject poverty. There are things worse than "imperialism."

That's the same excuse used by imperialists Queen Victoria and King Leopold (as well as their defenders) when each invaded the Indian subcontinent and Congo. Both professing Christians claimed to be doing those lands a big favor by invading them. While doing so, they killed millions of people and stole billions in resources. Had these invasions not taken place both societies would have been FAR better off.

Imagine if al-Qaeda or ISIS killed even a fraction of the amount of people killed by those two terrorists. What would the world look like today?

Post Reply