Forced EVs

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Forced EVs

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Many countries are moving to no internal combustion engine (ICE) car sales by XYZ date. California is moving to that as is Canada.
As the price of many homes are too high for many people (that's if they can find one and if they win the bidding war), this means many won't have a reliable place (ie garage) to charge their EV.

4.6 million new apartments are needed in the USA by 2030
https://www.naahq.org/news-publications ... ir%20needs.

Somewhere between 4% & 24% live in apartments in the USA (state dependent)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/798 ... state-usa/

This means 76%-94% live in houses, but how many of those houses have garages? And how many of those garages have access to electricity for charging?

I'm all for saving the environment, but what about those that don't have access to means to charge EVs? Is this the death of the road trip? In the USA, most employers don't give their employees 3-4 weeks vacation per year. If it takes you two days to get from New York to Miami, then two days to get back, that's half your week's vacation gone.

For discussion:
At this time, is the forced removal of ICE, replacing them with EVs, too soon?
Is there something else behind this other than saving the planet?
Is the charging infrastructure ready for this?
What about those who, when the time comes, have no place to charge their EVs?
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Re: Forced EVs

Post #2

Post by Tcg »

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

I recently heard a discussion by a master mechanic who claimed that in the U.S. we don't presently have the power grid capacity to charge all the EVs needed. Not sure if this is true, but based on the rolling black outs we sometimes see in major cities during heat waves in the summer, it sounds reasonable.

Another major issue is the source of the power used to recharge the EVs. If it isn't based on a renewable source, then we aren't necessarily lowering the amount of pollution created, but rather simply moving the source of pollution from the streets to the power plants. Not sure if the amount would be equivalent or not, but ultimately it isn't a total solution.

Oh, another factor would be the amount of energy used to ship fuel to fueling stations. Of course, we'd need to know the amount of energy used to ship fuel/coal to power stations to compare fully and the amount of energy used to build EVs versus ICEVs and the amount of pollution created by building each. It gets complicated rather fast.

Maybe horse and buggies weren't such a bad idea. ;)


Tcg
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Re: Forced EVs

Post #3

Post by nobspeople »

Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:58 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

I recently heard a discussion by a master mechanic who claimed that in the U.S. we don't presently have the power grid capacity to charge all the EVs needed. Not sure if this is true, but based on the rolling black outs we sometimes see in major cities during heat waves in the summer, it sounds reasonable.

Another major issue is the source of the power used to recharge the EVs. If it isn't based on a renewable source, then we aren't necessarily lowering the amount of pollution created, but rather simply moving the source of pollution from the streets to the power plants. Not sure if the amount would be equivalent or not, but ultimately it isn't a total solution.

Oh, another factor would be the amount of energy used to ship fuel to fueling stations. Of course, we'd need to know the amount of energy used to ship fuel/coal to power stations to compare fully and the amount of energy used to build EVs versus ICEVs and the amount of pollution created by building each. It gets complicated rather fast.

Maybe horse and buggies weren't such a bad idea. ;)


Tcg
I, too, have heard issues with the power grid and its capability. Some say charging at night would be best as that's the lowest rates (for now).
What people seem to forget (purposefully or not I'm not sure) is, as you said, where the electricity is coming from that's used to charge the vehicle. Currently, batteries don't have the energy density that gasoline has, so it may take more 'outside' fuel to create electricity that, in effect, is being put into batteries that aren't as efficient as gasoline (this is one reason why it's easier to create electric cars than electric tractor trailers).
Not to mention the costs of creating and shipping batteries, as well as 'what to do with them when they're used' (car is totaled, for example).
For sure, the calculations get complicated, as you said.
EVs also aren't as 'cheap to operate' as many are led to believe. Insurance rates are rather high. Things like brake maintenance cost are high as EVs don't use brakes as often as ICE cars, especially in colder climates, which necessitates some higher than average brake maintenance, for example.
The argument is made that EV can last a lot longer than ICEs, but many modern ICEs are pulling down 500K miles if properly maintained.
There just seems to be a lot of 'unaccounted for' issues that people don't understand with adopting EVs. Sure, they're fun with the one pedal driving, lower center of gravity, almost instant acceleration. But I wonder how much the average consumer has researched them.
And what about the people who can't afford them when their state/country stops selling them? There aren't many of them that are cheap these days.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Forced EVs

Post #4

Post by Tcg »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:08 pm
Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:58 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

I recently heard a discussion by a master mechanic who claimed that in the U.S. we don't presently have the power grid capacity to charge all the EVs needed. Not sure if this is true, but based on the rolling black outs we sometimes see in major cities during heat waves in the summer, it sounds reasonable.

Another major issue is the source of the power used to recharge the EVs. If it isn't based on a renewable source, then we aren't necessarily lowering the amount of pollution created, but rather simply moving the source of pollution from the streets to the power plants. Not sure if the amount would be equivalent or not, but ultimately it isn't a total solution.

Oh, another factor would be the amount of energy used to ship fuel to fueling stations. Of course, we'd need to know the amount of energy used to ship fuel/coal to power stations to compare fully and the amount of energy used to build EVs versus ICEVs and the amount of pollution created by building each. It gets complicated rather fast.

Maybe horse and buggies weren't such a bad idea. ;)


Tcg
I, too, have heard issues with the power grid and its capability. Some say charging at night would be best as that's the lowest rates (for now).
What people seem to forget (purposefully or not I'm not sure) is, as you said, where the electricity is coming from that's used to charge the vehicle. Currently, batteries don't have the energy density that gasoline has, so it may take more 'outside' fuel to create electricity that, in effect, is being put into batteries that aren't as efficient as gasoline (this is one reason why it's easier to create electric cars than electric tractor trailers).
Not to mention the costs of creating and shipping batteries, as well as 'what to do with them when they're used' (car is totaled, for example).
For sure, the calculations get complicated, as you said.
EVs also aren't as 'cheap to operate' as many are led to believe. Insurance rates are rather high. Things like brake maintenance cost are high as EVs don't use brakes as often as ICE cars, especially in colder climates, which necessitates some higher than average brake maintenance, for example.
The argument is made that EV can last a lot longer than ICEs, but many modern ICEs are pulling down 500K miles if properly maintained.
There just seems to be a lot of 'unaccounted for' issues that people don't understand with adopting EVs. Sure, they're fun with the one pedal driving, lower center of gravity, almost instant acceleration. But I wonder how much the average consumer has researched them.
And what about the people who can't afford them when their state/country stops selling them? There aren't many of them that are cheap these days.
All very good points. Another thing I don't understand is why there aren't any economy EVs. It seems they're all high-end luxury vehicles with all kinds of non-necessary gadgets like sport mode versus spirited mode versus long range mode. Why not build a basic EV something like the old beetles of the 60s. Not to sound too pessimistic, but as the real buying power of wages continue to shrink, folks are going to need less expensive options. We could work on increasing public transportation, but that is really not viable for rural areas. It really wouldn't even work in suburbs.

We did ourselves no favors by building communities where one has to drive to shop and work. Online ordering may be easing some of that, but it really just transfers the driving to someone else.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Forced EVs

Post #5

Post by nobspeople »

Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:27 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:08 pm
Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:58 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

I recently heard a discussion by a master mechanic who claimed that in the U.S. we don't presently have the power grid capacity to charge all the EVs needed. Not sure if this is true, but based on the rolling black outs we sometimes see in major cities during heat waves in the summer, it sounds reasonable.

Another major issue is the source of the power used to recharge the EVs. If it isn't based on a renewable source, then we aren't necessarily lowering the amount of pollution created, but rather simply moving the source of pollution from the streets to the power plants. Not sure if the amount would be equivalent or not, but ultimately it isn't a total solution.

Oh, another factor would be the amount of energy used to ship fuel to fueling stations. Of course, we'd need to know the amount of energy used to ship fuel/coal to power stations to compare fully and the amount of energy used to build EVs versus ICEVs and the amount of pollution created by building each. It gets complicated rather fast.

Maybe horse and buggies weren't such a bad idea. ;)


Tcg
I, too, have heard issues with the power grid and its capability. Some say charging at night would be best as that's the lowest rates (for now).
What people seem to forget (purposefully or not I'm not sure) is, as you said, where the electricity is coming from that's used to charge the vehicle. Currently, batteries don't have the energy density that gasoline has, so it may take more 'outside' fuel to create electricity that, in effect, is being put into batteries that aren't as efficient as gasoline (this is one reason why it's easier to create electric cars than electric tractor trailers).
Not to mention the costs of creating and shipping batteries, as well as 'what to do with them when they're used' (car is totaled, for example).
For sure, the calculations get complicated, as you said.
EVs also aren't as 'cheap to operate' as many are led to believe. Insurance rates are rather high. Things like brake maintenance cost are high as EVs don't use brakes as often as ICE cars, especially in colder climates, which necessitates some higher than average brake maintenance, for example.
The argument is made that EV can last a lot longer than ICEs, but many modern ICEs are pulling down 500K miles if properly maintained.
There just seems to be a lot of 'unaccounted for' issues that people don't understand with adopting EVs. Sure, they're fun with the one pedal driving, lower center of gravity, almost instant acceleration. But I wonder how much the average consumer has researched them.
And what about the people who can't afford them when their state/country stops selling them? There aren't many of them that are cheap these days.
All very good points. Another thing I don't understand is why there aren't any economy EVs. It seems they're all high-end luxury vehicles with all kinds of non-necessary gadgets like sport mode versus spirited mode versus long range mode. Why not build a basic EV something like the old beetles of the 60s. Not to sound too pessimistic, but as the real buying power of wages continue to shrink, folks are going to need less expensive options. We could work on increasing public transportation, but that is really not viable for rural areas. It really wouldn't even work in suburbs.

We did ourselves no favors by building communities where one has to drive to shop and work. Online ordering may be easing some of that, but it really just transfers the driving to someone else.


Tcg
My understanding is that it's still too expensive to make cheaper EVs. That and companies want profit so that make EVs with profitable options and market it to people who can pay the price.
Having worked in the auto mfg'ing industry for twenty+ years, I can tell you auto companies tend to not want to do anything different unless they're forced to do so OR there's a ton of profit potential with very little risk. It takes years to make new cars. A car has to meet its intended purpose, be stylish, safe, comfortable, perform well, get good efficiency, and balance all of that while meeting a myriad of regulations and battling the competition for market share. And that's just the beginning.
The new Ford Maverick is a hit - dealers can't keep them on the lots long - because it's a cheap truck that looks decent and gets good (advertised) MPG. I think car companies are pricing themselves out of business with the abandonment of small, inexpensive cars, EVs or ICEs.
And it's a cultural thing. In the USA, public transportation is looked down upon more so than in places like Europe or Japan. Part of that is due to the size and distance traveled in the USA vs smaller places, for sure. For that reason, EVs will be hard to adopt by most USA citizens in the coming future IMO.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Forced EVs

Post #6

Post by Tcg »

nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:44 pm
Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:27 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:08 pm
Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:58 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

I recently heard a discussion by a master mechanic who claimed that in the U.S. we don't presently have the power grid capacity to charge all the EVs needed. Not sure if this is true, but based on the rolling black outs we sometimes see in major cities during heat waves in the summer, it sounds reasonable.

Another major issue is the source of the power used to recharge the EVs. If it isn't based on a renewable source, then we aren't necessarily lowering the amount of pollution created, but rather simply moving the source of pollution from the streets to the power plants. Not sure if the amount would be equivalent or not, but ultimately it isn't a total solution.

Oh, another factor would be the amount of energy used to ship fuel to fueling stations. Of course, we'd need to know the amount of energy used to ship fuel/coal to power stations to compare fully and the amount of energy used to build EVs versus ICEVs and the amount of pollution created by building each. It gets complicated rather fast.

Maybe horse and buggies weren't such a bad idea. ;)


Tcg
I, too, have heard issues with the power grid and its capability. Some say charging at night would be best as that's the lowest rates (for now).
What people seem to forget (purposefully or not I'm not sure) is, as you said, where the electricity is coming from that's used to charge the vehicle. Currently, batteries don't have the energy density that gasoline has, so it may take more 'outside' fuel to create electricity that, in effect, is being put into batteries that aren't as efficient as gasoline (this is one reason why it's easier to create electric cars than electric tractor trailers).
Not to mention the costs of creating and shipping batteries, as well as 'what to do with them when they're used' (car is totaled, for example).
For sure, the calculations get complicated, as you said.
EVs also aren't as 'cheap to operate' as many are led to believe. Insurance rates are rather high. Things like brake maintenance cost are high as EVs don't use brakes as often as ICE cars, especially in colder climates, which necessitates some higher than average brake maintenance, for example.
The argument is made that EV can last a lot longer than ICEs, but many modern ICEs are pulling down 500K miles if properly maintained.
There just seems to be a lot of 'unaccounted for' issues that people don't understand with adopting EVs. Sure, they're fun with the one pedal driving, lower center of gravity, almost instant acceleration. But I wonder how much the average consumer has researched them.
And what about the people who can't afford them when their state/country stops selling them? There aren't many of them that are cheap these days.
All very good points. Another thing I don't understand is why there aren't any economy EVs. It seems they're all high-end luxury vehicles with all kinds of non-necessary gadgets like sport mode versus spirited mode versus long range mode. Why not build a basic EV something like the old beetles of the 60s. Not to sound too pessimistic, but as the real buying power of wages continue to shrink, folks are going to need less expensive options. We could work on increasing public transportation, but that is really not viable for rural areas. It really wouldn't even work in suburbs.

We did ourselves no favors by building communities where one has to drive to shop and work. Online ordering may be easing some of that, but it really just transfers the driving to someone else.


Tcg
My understanding is that it's still too expensive to make cheaper EVs. That and companies want profit so that make EVs with profitable options and market it to people who can pay the price.
Having worked in the auto mfg'ing industry for twenty+ years, I can tell you auto companies tend to not want to do anything different unless they're forced to do so OR there's a ton of profit potential with very little risk. It takes years to make new cars. A car has to meet its intended purpose, be stylish, safe, comfortable, perform well, get good efficiency, and balance all of that while meeting a myriad of regulations and battling the competition for market share. And that's just the beginning.
The new Ford Maverick is a hit - dealers can't keep them on the lots long - because it's a cheap truck that looks decent and gets good (advertised) MPG. I think car companies are pricing themselves out of business with the abandonment of small, inexpensive cars, EVs or ICEs.
And it's a cultural thing. In the USA, public transportation is looked down upon more so than in places like Europe or Japan. Part of that is due to the size and distance traveled in the USA vs smaller places, for sure. For that reason, EVs will be hard to adopt by most USA citizens in the coming future IMO.
I'd forgotten about how expensive and time consuming it is to get a vehicle to market especially with all the safety issues and requirements involved. It seems too that at least in the U.S. we've grown accustomed to the many luxury and convince features modern vehicles have. It might be hard to market a stripped down smaller vehicle.

I don't know much about what it takes to design and manufacture an EV. It seems though it would be easier than ICEs. Just thinking of the motor versus an ICE. Wouldn't an electric motor have only one moving part? I'm not sure if EVs have transmissions either. It just seems that a bare bones EV could be produced rather economically. I'm sure there are aspects I'm overlooking.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Forced EVs

Post #7

Post by nobspeople »

Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:13 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:44 pm
Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:27 pm
nobspeople wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 2:08 pm
Tcg wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:58 pm [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

I recently heard a discussion by a master mechanic who claimed that in the U.S. we don't presently have the power grid capacity to charge all the EVs needed. Not sure if this is true, but based on the rolling black outs we sometimes see in major cities during heat waves in the summer, it sounds reasonable.

Another major issue is the source of the power used to recharge the EVs. If it isn't based on a renewable source, then we aren't necessarily lowering the amount of pollution created, but rather simply moving the source of pollution from the streets to the power plants. Not sure if the amount would be equivalent or not, but ultimately it isn't a total solution.

Oh, another factor would be the amount of energy used to ship fuel to fueling stations. Of course, we'd need to know the amount of energy used to ship fuel/coal to power stations to compare fully and the amount of energy used to build EVs versus ICEVs and the amount of pollution created by building each. It gets complicated rather fast.

Maybe horse and buggies weren't such a bad idea. ;)


Tcg
I, too, have heard issues with the power grid and its capability. Some say charging at night would be best as that's the lowest rates (for now).
What people seem to forget (purposefully or not I'm not sure) is, as you said, where the electricity is coming from that's used to charge the vehicle. Currently, batteries don't have the energy density that gasoline has, so it may take more 'outside' fuel to create electricity that, in effect, is being put into batteries that aren't as efficient as gasoline (this is one reason why it's easier to create electric cars than electric tractor trailers).
Not to mention the costs of creating and shipping batteries, as well as 'what to do with them when they're used' (car is totaled, for example).
For sure, the calculations get complicated, as you said.
EVs also aren't as 'cheap to operate' as many are led to believe. Insurance rates are rather high. Things like brake maintenance cost are high as EVs don't use brakes as often as ICE cars, especially in colder climates, which necessitates some higher than average brake maintenance, for example.
The argument is made that EV can last a lot longer than ICEs, but many modern ICEs are pulling down 500K miles if properly maintained.
There just seems to be a lot of 'unaccounted for' issues that people don't understand with adopting EVs. Sure, they're fun with the one pedal driving, lower center of gravity, almost instant acceleration. But I wonder how much the average consumer has researched them.
And what about the people who can't afford them when their state/country stops selling them? There aren't many of them that are cheap these days.
All very good points. Another thing I don't understand is why there aren't any economy EVs. It seems they're all high-end luxury vehicles with all kinds of non-necessary gadgets like sport mode versus spirited mode versus long range mode. Why not build a basic EV something like the old beetles of the 60s. Not to sound too pessimistic, but as the real buying power of wages continue to shrink, folks are going to need less expensive options. We could work on increasing public transportation, but that is really not viable for rural areas. It really wouldn't even work in suburbs.

We did ourselves no favors by building communities where one has to drive to shop and work. Online ordering may be easing some of that, but it really just transfers the driving to someone else.


Tcg
My understanding is that it's still too expensive to make cheaper EVs. That and companies want profit so that make EVs with profitable options and market it to people who can pay the price.
Having worked in the auto mfg'ing industry for twenty+ years, I can tell you auto companies tend to not want to do anything different unless they're forced to do so OR there's a ton of profit potential with very little risk. It takes years to make new cars. A car has to meet its intended purpose, be stylish, safe, comfortable, perform well, get good efficiency, and balance all of that while meeting a myriad of regulations and battling the competition for market share. And that's just the beginning.
The new Ford Maverick is a hit - dealers can't keep them on the lots long - because it's a cheap truck that looks decent and gets good (advertised) MPG. I think car companies are pricing themselves out of business with the abandonment of small, inexpensive cars, EVs or ICEs.
And it's a cultural thing. In the USA, public transportation is looked down upon more so than in places like Europe or Japan. Part of that is due to the size and distance traveled in the USA vs smaller places, for sure. For that reason, EVs will be hard to adopt by most USA citizens in the coming future IMO.
I'd forgotten about how expensive and time consuming it is to get a vehicle to market especially with all the safety issues and requirements involved. It seems too that at least in the U.S. we've grown accustomed to the many luxury and convince features modern vehicles have. It might be hard to market a stripped down smaller vehicle.

I don't know much about what it takes to design and manufacture an EV. It seems though it would be easier than ICEs. Just thinking of the motor versus an ICE. Wouldn't an electric motor have only one moving part? I'm not sure if EVs have transmissions either. It just seems that a bare bones EV could be produced rather economically. I'm sure there are aspects I'm overlooking.


Tcg
EVs typically only have 1 gear (though there are a couple that have two - Toyota is said to be working on one with a manual but we'll see).
True, EVs don't have as many 'moving' parts (battery compared to engine), though there are more rare earth material (REM) in batteries than engines.
There is a group that enjoy basic, bare bones transportation (bare bones meaning AC, (sometimes) pwr windows, locks, cruise, etc) but those aren't as profitable simply because if all your cars have X, Y & Z, the mfg'er gets them at a cheaper rate than if they buy fewer X, Y & As, but also buy A, B & Cs. Suppliers have the same issue: dies and molds are expensive so if they only have to buy 2-3 instead of 4-5, it makes them more profitable. Then there's storage, PM and all that which comes with more & different dies and molds. Not to mention training on different parts.
That's one big reason why mfg'ers share platforms not only internally, but also among competitors (BMW Z4/Supra, GR 86/BRZ, for current examples).
Even though batteries are expensive to source, if your company makes 200,000 EVs, but different models, it's easier to program electronics in relation to the battery than it is to have different ICEs by space alone.
This is also important when a refresh is due: it's easier to tweak a battery than increase displacement or add forced injection.
So it seems the move to EVs benefits the mfg'ers more than the consumer - at least currently.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: Forced EVs

Post #8

Post by thomasdixon »

Do not charge—exchange instead

There is a better and easier way to get your car battery charged.
Just exchange your discharged battery with a charged one.
Just like in a car wash, drive between the rails, stop when the red light comes on and sit while your discharged battery is exchanged with a charged one.
It will take you less time than you spend filling a car with gas 8-)

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Re: Forced EVs

Post #9

Post by oldbadger »

Even in the UK we are discovering that travelling longer journeys in an EV can be a huge problem, so for US travel the EV is inadequate at this time. Recharges during travels need 50watt charging facilities unless a driver wants to wait several hours, and fast charging Lithium's all the time is unhealthy for them. Running Lithium's below 20% charge is nasty as well.
The answer for folks without garages, for distance travel, for general us has not been produced yet, but a 90% EV fitted with an ICE just for recharging might answer, because all local travel, city and town travel etc could be travelled as an EV. Hybrids are not 90% EVs.

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Re: Forced EVs

Post #10

Post by thomasdixon »

oldbadger wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:17 amThe answer for folks without garages, for distance travel, for general us has not been produced yet, but a 90% EV fitted with an ICE just for recharging might answer, because all local travel, city and town travel etc could be travelled as an EV. Hybrids are not 90% EVs.
I think there is a second solution to the recharging problem.
Instead of spending hours recharging your car battery, why not just exchange the battery pack with a recharged one?
The current gas service stations could dig up the huge fuel tanks and replace this space with automated racks of charged battery packs.
The car drives into a narrow space like todays drive-through car washing stations.
I think this would be a simple solution to a huge problem.
The turnaround time should be about as long as it took to fill the tank of a conventional car gas tank.
:D

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