Gun laws

[Rose2020]

In America.
So, do those who insist on their rights to own guns still feel the same after this latest appalling incident?

As an Englishwoman in the UK, I have never understood this mentality of Americans. Why would the average citizen want a gun?

[AgnosticBoy]

In America.
So, do those who insist on their rights to own guns still feel the same after this latest appalling incident?

As an Englishwoman in the UK, I have never understood this mentality of Americans. Why would the average citizen want a gun?

Rose,

What do you think of the following scenario?


I think the movie clip speaks for itself (just watch from the beginning to the 1:20 mark)

[Rose2020]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #21]

Hi
I understand, I watched Deathwish films before, I find them very disturbing but of course I see the principal.

Yet, I am glad to leave law and order in the hands of the police. It cannot be right to put it into the hands of citizens. That way is never the answer. I couldn't hurt or kill another human being. I couldn't go near a gun, it is appalling even to think of owning one. It is madness. Some say arm the school staff in America - surely that just means shootouts, further madness. Yet if guns cannot be got rid of, the only answer is trained armed licensed guards for every school and business. Where does that stop? What kind of environment is that for children to live in permanently?
I am contented to live in the UK where guns are illegal. That is the best way.

What has happened is appalling. Yet there is very little to prevent a truly mad person from suddenly acting on their madness. They could use a knife or some other way. But if guns are easy to get hold of, it is worse.

[Kylie]

[Replying to Rose2020 in post #9]

I think not, Rose. We have the Triangle of problems: much heroin addiction, rife corruption and a lot of torture. The guns (and pepper spray) allows USA to do business, etc. See the success of NYSE/NASDAQ over the European stock exchanges. USA is the hope of the World and therefore the leader for the World to become a better place. It's all places outside USA which should copy USA, not the other way around.

Are you for real?

You think guns are the reason why the American stock exchange is so powerful?

Maybe communists are happy in Europe, but you should know the reasons why they are happy. They are not in favor of human rights and the rule of law. You should also know what they want to do with kids: break them mentally, make them mentally dead. It says so in Marx' work, close to where they declare religion the opium of people. Privacy is also a problem in communism, they don't know where to draw the line.

You know that very little of Europe is communist, right?

There is a reason why they say USA is God's own country

Who else except an American would say that?

because rule of (Christian) laws is respected there.

Christianity is not the foundation for the American legal system. You may not realise it, but America is NOT a theocracy.

I have some business experience and USA is at least 2 levels above all other places in ease of business and in efficiency in realizing ideas, helping to make ideas products or make them impact.

Yeah, I bet the Japanese (who are most certainly NOT a Christian majority) are better at business than Americans.

[Rose2020]

Here in the UK it is simple. If we feel threatened, we call the police. We trust they are the trained experts who will take care of us. The law will deal with justice.

So, in America do those who own guns for self defence not trust their own country's policing?
If not, what is law enforcement for?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Here in the UK it is simple. If we feel threatened, we call the police. We trust they are the trained experts who will take care of us. The law will deal with justice.

So, in America do those who own guns for self defence not trust their own country's policing?
If not, what is law enforcement for?

Yes here too we can call the Police, no different.

The difference is the society and social values, believe it or not for the most part I feel safer in US than UK, I left UK when I was 40 and have been in US since for 20 years.

There is a sense of entitlement among many in Britain along with confidence that the law will likely not do a great deal anyway. This leads to outbursts of violence and anti-social behavior that I see far less in the US.

Try calling the Police when someone is attempting to kick your front door in at 1am. In the UK they'd get in and you're in trouble now, limited means of defense and the risk that even if you did injure an assailant you could end up in the dock yourself.

Yes when it comes to guns the US is off the scales, its a very serious problem but guns aside the overall safety is higher, there is far less of a sense of entitlement, free money for rent and utilities and so on is much harder to get here so the huge army of loafers that live on the dole for decades is much much tinier.

I know people in London and Liverpool that have not worked, have not had a job for over thirty years yet their rent is paid, their utilities are paid, their day to day living expenses are paid, their health care costs are paid - this has led to huge numbers of younger people feeling entitled and with that a degree of contempt for others.

Take "squatting" in the UK I could return from a trip and find someone has broken into my home, changed the locks and started living there. I am then breaking the law if I try to get into MY OWN HOUSE!

You can of course call the Police but they'll tell you this is a CIVIL matter not a criminal one, they can't help, call your lawyer, thank you good bye. In the US it is (in most places and circumstances) regarded as a criminal act and the Police will gain entry and arrest the occupants then hand you your front door key and let you back in.

Consider driving under the influence of alcohol. Where I live in Arizona this is a very serious offence and you WILL go to prison, whereas in the UK they pussy foot around all the time, look at this garbage:

"Katie Price 'incredibly sorry' after drink-driving crash".

On Wednesday a judge handed her a 16-week suspended jail term, telling Price she was lucky to have avoided prison.

She had admitted drink-driving while disqualified and driving without insurance when she appeared at the same court on 29 September.

Sentencing her, District Judge Amanda Kelly told 43-year-old Price, who had previously been banned from driving on five separate occasions, she had "one of the worst driving records I have seen".

"You appear to think that you are above the law," she told Price, who was also handed a two-year driving ban and ordered to do 100 hours of unpaid work.

Joke, why apply a driving ban when she had already been banned FIVE TIMES and continued to drive !!

Note too, even the judge said "You appear to think that you are above the law" which is a laughable thing to say given the feeble punishment actually meted out over and over with this criminal, its like a Kafka novel.

Criminals get support not punishment and that's why the UK is less safe.

Meanwhile, in Arizona:

First offense: You will be jailed for not less than 10 consecutive days and fined not less than $1,250. You will also be required to undergo alcohol screening/education/treatment and to equip any vehicle you operate with a certified ignition interlock device, and be ordered to perform community service.

Second and subsequent offenses: You will be jailed for not less than 90 days and fined not less than $3,000 and your license will be revoked for 12 months. You will also be required to undergo alcohol screening/education/treatment and to equip any vehicle you operate with a certified ignition interlock device, and be ordered to perform community service.

There is scope for some optimism though, the garbage Katie Price might yet still end up in prison:

"Katie Price may face jail after admitting to breach of restraining order".

So, fingers crossed !

[AgnosticBoy]

Here in the UK it is simple. If we feel threatened, we call the police. We trust they are the trained experts who will take care of us. The law will deal with justice.

So, in America do those who own guns for self defence not trust their own country's policing?
If not, what is law enforcement for?

I'm sure Americans would like to have law enforcement do their job. But the problem is that law enforcement can not stop or prevent crime everytime or everywhere. Oftentimes, they arrive on the scene after a crime is committed. If a woman is armed and being physically assaulted or threatened, and law enforcement is not on the scene yet, then she can protect herself in the meanwhile. What is the alternative? Stand there and get victimized until the police show up, assuming that you're still alive?

[Rose2020]

I can see the problem is very complex. The law here in the UK is not perfect. I can see the point of view that everyone has the right to defend themselves.

Yet, overall I much prefer the absence of guns. I would not feel safe if citizens around me were armed. I actually could not inflict pain or death on another human being so I never want to own a gun. It is unimaginable and a sin to take a life - especially as a Christian.

I am curious, where do gun owners in the States keep their guns? There is danger that children, small grandchildren or volatile teenage children could get and use them? Yet you need quick access to a gun in case you hear someone breaking in at night. Can you have quick access but safety in the average Household? Also training, does every gunowner get proper training and safety advice along with a licence?

My questions reflect my disbelief and horror at how anyone can live with a lethal weapon close at hand.
A final point - how on earth did an 18 year old boy get hold of such a powerful gun and ammunition - who supplied it and why? They need to understand why he killed his grandmother and then targeted small children? Unless he was simply crazy, the likely story is he had a brutal childhood of abuse that turned him into a monster. Those aspects need to be addressed.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Here in the UK it is simple. If we feel threatened, we call the police. We trust they are the trained experts who will take care of us. The law will deal with justice.

So, in America do those who own guns for self defence not trust their own country's policing?
If not, what is law enforcement for?

On a more specific note. Yes of course I would immediately call the Police if I had any suspicions my home was under threat. My initial steps though would be to grab and load my gun and prepare myself for a possible encounter.

Calling the Police would be the next step. Then I'd do all I could to avoid firing my gun and them firing theirs (they very well might be armed), I would only fire it if I regarded the situation as life threatening and would never fire it at a target I could not clearly see and ideally communicate with and warn.

But even without all these basic safety steps people have killed burglars and home invaders point blank, no talking, no warnings and they almost always walk - the law offers huge protection to home owners (here in AZ, it varies by state).

"Homeowner speaks out after shooting kills naked burglary suspect in Scottsdale".

In Britain you'd get beaten with the wooden stick, if you stabbed or killed the assailant you'd likely end up in prison too, unlike Katie Price!

[AgnosticBoy]

Yet, overall I much prefer the absence of guns. I would not feel safe if citizens around me were armed.

I think that even some of those who would feel uncomfortable could eventually get comfortable if there was a respectable system for civilians to own and operate guns. I say that because there's already a respectable system in place for cops and military to have guns, and I presume that you're comfortable around cops and the military. Cops and military undergo lots of training, they are well regulated, etc. If some of that were required of civilians then perhaps you'd be more comfortable with armed civilians.

I actually could not inflict pain or death on another human being so I never want to own a gun. It is unimaginable and a sin to take a life - especially as a Christian.

To my understanding, it is a sin to commit murder or an unjustifiable killing. Also, let me give you some scenarios to consider.
Even if you didn't want to harm another human being, but would you be okay with law enforcement doing it if they needed to protect life?

What about Hitler in WWII? Would you have been okay letting him kill millions and not stopping him with force?

I am curious, where do gun owners in the States keep their guns? There is danger that children, small grandchildren or volatile teenage children could get and use them? Yet you need quick access to a gun in case you hear someone breaking in at night. Can you have quick access but safety in the average Household? Also training, does every gunowner get proper training and safety advice along with a licence?

Gun owners in America are supposed to keep their firearms stored in a lock box. If that is not done, then I'm sure the gun owner would be charged with a crime for not securing his or her gun, especially if a child got a hold of it.

My questions reflect my disbelief and horror at how anyone can live with a lethal weapon close at hand.
A final point - how on earth did an 18 year old boy get hold of such a powerful gun and ammunition - who supplied it and why? They need to understand why he killed his grandmother and then targeted small children? Unless he was simply crazy, the likely story is he had a brutal childhood of abuse that turned him into a monster. Those aspects need to be addressed.

Very poor and lax gun laws allowed these 18 year old boy to buy a gun. In my view, if every prospect gun owner went through the same background checks and training (and make those PERIODIC instead of just one time) that law enforcement went through, then there would be much less gun crime, mass shootings, and civilian gun owners might even be just as respected as the cops are.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I can see the problem is very complex. The law here in the UK is not perfect. I can see the point of view that everyone has the right to defend themselves.

Yet, overall I much prefer the absence of guns. I would not feel safe if citizens around me were armed. I actually could not inflict pain or death on another human being so I never want to own a gun. It is unimaginable and a sin to take a life - especially as a Christian.

Having said what I have said, I must applaud you on that. You are right, we should rely on God for our welfare, violence is a sin, despite knowing this and understanding it I still hesitate and want to feel protected. This is an interesting point discussed on this (American) website:

"Christians And Owning Guns".

excerpt:

Now if you had asked me ‘Is it okay for a Christian to have a gun for self defense?’ the answer would have been certainly not! No man of God depends on the strength of arms for his protection from evil.

I am curious, where do gun owners in the States keep their guns? There is danger that children, small grandchildren or volatile teenage children could get and use them? Yet you need quick access to a gun in case you hear someone breaking in at night. Can you have quick access but safety in the average Household? Also training, does every gunowner get proper training and safety advice along with a licence?

I can give my insights, others will have theirs. I bought my gun in 2020, Trump's insanity was creating tensions everywhere and I began to feel unsafe. The manual that came with it is worth reading, almost every page it has red warnings, here's one:

WARNING: NEVER RELY ON MECHANICAL FEATURES ALONE. ONLY YOUR SAFE GUN HANDLING WILL ENSURE THE SAFE USE OF YOUR FIREARM. THIS IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY

If you read the manual all the way through (which I did several times) you cannot miss these repeated emphasized warning, reminding you that YOU are responsible for people's safety in your home - its over and over - drummed into you as you read.

There are no children living here just me and my wife (we do have occasional visitors staying of course). My gun is unloaded in its case easily accessible on a high shelf in an adjoining closet to our bedroom. I have a small box of ammunition in my bedside table. The gun is never ever loaded while in my house (only once a few months ago when there was a very strange sound outside at 2am, very rare, it was a Coyote, no harm, after 15 minutes I unloaded it and returned it to case). The gun is only ever loaded at a shooting range or in a designated outdoor unsupervised shooting area (there are many of these in Arizona) where there are no restrictions.

Some people put a loaded gun into a safe, inaccessible except in an emergency and combination.

There are tragically though frequent stories of sloppy gun owners, leaving guns lying around, leaving LOADED guns lying around. Leaving ammo scattered around in kitchen drawers and so on. Many children die annually because of this idiocy.

No training is needed, this does fluctuate though by both state and cities within states. In Arizona (possibly the most liberal gun laws in US) one can even go out, buy a gun and shoulder holster and put that on under one's jacket and go - concealed weapon carry does not need a permit (most states do require one).

Remember the right to buy and own a gun is a right, its in the constitution, the government cannot impede your ownership much at all.

My questions reflect my disbelief and horror at how anyone can live with a lethal weapon close at hand.
A final point - how on earth did an 18 year old boy get hold of such a powerful gun and ammunition - who supplied it and why? They need to understand why he killed his grandmother and then targeted small children? Unless he was simply crazy, the likely story is he had a brutal childhood of abuse that turned him into a monster. Those aspects need to be addressed.

My wife does not like guns and her wishes come first so I go to whatever lengths make sense so that she feels safe in her own home.

As for "lethal" since my early teens I've been around power tools, circular saw, chainsaws, electric drills, all sorts of lethal dangerous tools and I always handle them safely. For example once I cut some wood or do some drilling I pull the power cord out of the wall, this is routine for me, I am use to dangerous things being around and use to maintaining a safe environment a gun is not unlike some of these.

At 18 he can exercise his constitutional right to buy firearms, he will have been background checked at the store by an FBI database search this is the law nationwide. Ammo is easy to buy as easy as buying boxes of matches or screws.

The semi-automatic AR15 rifles are an obscenity, they should be outlawed period, fully automatic weapons ("machine guns") are already banned for general public purchase and I don't see the far right gun maniacs ever complaining about that, so lets just extend the ban and move on.